Jacqueline Kennedy: Historic Conversations on Life With John F. Kennedy (16 page)

What do you think the President would have had in mind for Bobby, if not the Justice—bringing him into the White House in some way or—

ATTORNEY GENERAL ROBERT KENNEDY AND PRESIDENT KENNEDY IN THE OVAL OFFICE, APRIL 1962
Abbie Rowe, National Park Service/John F. Kennedy Library and Museum, Boston

I don't know. But he was so used to working with Bobby and having him to sound out decisions with, so I suppose it might have been that domestic—sort of like Bundy, only not. I don't know. I think he always wanted Bundy for Bundy's job, didn't he? Or did he decide that after?

I think he must have always had it in mind. He decided it sort of in December. He was absolutely definite that he wanted Mac down with him and I think in the course of December down in Palm Beach he decided that he would be the man for that job.

And—oh, but that job really changed completely, the way, what Jack and Bundy made of it, didn't it?

Yes, it was much more. It had been a rather routine job with people like Gordon Gray
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and so on and it became, partly because of Mac's ability and partly because of Rusk's weakness, it became—

Jack saw he needed that?

It became much more of a job.

And just the way he saw he needed to get General Taylor there after the Bay of Pigs. He sort of created this job. Oh, one other thing I was going to tell you—the cabinet, what was it? God, my mind's gone blank.

Mac? Or?

Oh, one thing in Florida that I can remember about the interregnum that was rather a painful day. It was when Franklin Roosevelt, Jr., came down and Franklin told me Mr. Kennedy met him at the airport and said, "If it wasn't for some Italian in New York, we'd all be working for you now," meaning Carmine.
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You know, again Mr. Kennedy's charm—oh, no, no, no, that was before West Virginia—sorry. That's what he said to Franklin to get him to help in West Virginia. But, Franklin wanted to be secretary of the navy and McNamara said that he couldn't have him. Franklin always thinks that Henry Ford told McNamara he couldn't have him—some convoluted reasoning there. I forget what it is. So it was very hard for Franklin—you know, to tell him that. But he took it so sweetly.
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I wonder why Bob had that feeling?

I do think it might have been—either Henry Ford or McNamara had a meeting with Franklin. His mind was sort of set against him a bit before. I think Franklin would have been all right.

I think Franklin would have been a very good secretary of the navy.

Yeah.

Franklin is bright and he's capable of hard work and I think he's been—all I hear of him is the good job in Commerce.

So Jack felt terribly about Franklin. He offered him ambassador to Canada, ambassador to Italy, every time anything—this was in the months after the presidency and before, anytime he could think of anything, because he knew he really owed so much to Franklin, and Franklin said, no, he just would use these years to make some money and keep his Fiat—and then one—I guess it was last winter—we were at the Roosevelts for dinner and I guess this undersecretary of commerce job had come up because after dinner Franklin and Jack disappeared into an upstairs bedroom about an hour and a half, and Franklin had been, I guess, telling Jack how much he wanted it. So, on the way home in the car, Jack was so happy to see—you know, at last there was something Franklin wanted. And then he was made it.

How about Udall?
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Had you known him at all?

Not really. You know, just the way I knew all the senators. I think he was always the one Jack wanted for that, don't you?

Yes.

Jack owed him a lot for Arizona, which he took away from Lyndon and brought to Jack. And he was bright and he really was—I mean, Jack said he's one of the best secretaries of the interior. You know, he really cares about conservation and all that. So I knew he was always planned and—who was it for Agriculture? There were three people—Herschel, does that make sense?

Herschel Newson?

Herschel or somebody, and Docking, was it?

Docking was the governor of Kansas.

Yeah, we knew him, we'd stayed with them. And some Her—well, Herschel Loveless, is it?

Herschel Loveless, yes, the former governor of Iowa.

Yeah. But Jack didn't like him much, I don't think? Anyway, he made things rather difficult. When Jack interviewed him, I guess he just had no ideas or was just—I know Jack was really depressed after that. And he loved Orville Freeman.
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I don't know if he was always wanting Orville Freeman or how Orville Freeman came up.

Orville gave the nominating speech in Los Angeles.

Yeah, but I mean, I wonder why Jack just didn't make him that in the beginning.

Orville didn't want it. Orville wanted to be attorney general.

I see.

Or to be secretary of the army, for some reason, and he just had a sense that the agricultural problem was insoluble and I think that was—my recollection is that, that was the last cabinet office filled.

I know at the convention, Jack was promising everyone Agriculture, wasn't he? I mean, a couple of people like Loveless and—

I think yes—particularly Middle Westerners.

Yeah.

To sort of flourish before them. Hodges?

Well, I don't remember any problem or anyone else they were considering besides Hodges.
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Who found Hodges? I think it was Sargent. And I don't know, it didn't set your mind aflame. I think maybe Jack thought he needed someone older.

Nice old man, a southerner—

A southerner business would trust, or something. I can't remember any comments he ever made and what kind of secretary of commerce Hodges was.

And then Ed Day as postmaster general.
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Oh, yeah. I don't know why he was chosen either, do you?

They wanted a Californian.

Oh, yeah. Well, he was the one cabinet member I really thought was third rate. I mean, I don't know about being postmaster general, but just corny and just—I don't know. I never thought much of him.

Now all the members of the cabinet, really the only ones whom the President knew moderately before, besides Bobby, were Douglas, and I guess, and Stewart Udall.

And Freeman.

And Freeman. But Rusk and McNamara and Hodges and Day, of course, Arthur Goldberg, we forgot.

Oh, yeah.

Goldberg was an old friend.

Yes, and he knew Goldberg—I mean, there was never any doubt in his mind that he wanted Arthur for that job. And I remember how sad he was when the appointment came in the Supreme Court, though he thought Wirtz was wonderful—a wonderful man. You know, it was sort of the way McNamara and Gilpatric
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worked together in Defense. You know, he really hated to lose Arthur in Labor but he really cared about his appointments to the Supreme Court. He said, "Oh, God, I'll hate to lose him." And now Arthur just thinks he's—I don't know—just the way all the Supreme Court justices get to think of themselves. I was so amazed that Arthur would rule that way and—that thing they just passed, where you can write anything about people in public office. And Arthur would even say you could do it with deliberate malice.
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He was one of the three who were for that. When you think, ads like that in the paper was partly what killed Jack.
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They get so detached from life up in the Supreme Court. There's this atmosphere of just reverence. But still, Arthur Goldberg's brilliant. But he talks more about himself than any man I've ever met in my life.

Has that always been so or is it—

Well, in the early days when he used to come for breakfast all the time, for the labor bill—they were obviously talking about the labor bill. But I really started to see much of Arthur Goldberg after the presidency. And I was really horrified. But, I mean, I know he's brilliant. I just think it's such a shame to be so pleased with yourself.

Apart from Rusk and from Day, the President was fairly well satisfied with the cabinet. Did you think?

Yeah, I don't think he cared about Day one way or the other because I don't know—I mean, is the Post Office Department a big problem?

No, I think Day ran it perfectly competently.

Yeah, Day was just sort of a—I don't know—he was always being in little skits at the multiple sclerosis ball. I just thought he was silly. But, that was me and I never really discussed him with Jack. But I don't think he thought much of him.

One of the interesting things is the President's instinct for people because his capacity to pick people whom he knew rather slightly—even Lovett and McCloy,
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for example. He hadn't known them much before, had he?

I don't think so. I mean, he'd obviously known them, but not terribly well. He could tell so much by talking to them, though I guess, with Dean Rusk, he made a mistake, but as you say, Dean Rusk comes over so marvelously when you're talking to him. You think he can save the world.

That would be his—how would he go about sizing them up? He'd talk to them—that'd be the main thing, of course, then he'd get a lot of reports from Sarge.
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Yeah. He'd have all these reports and things, and things that other people would say about them and then they'd come. It's like an interview if you're going to be accepted in a school or something. I mean, he'd be in that living room with them for a couple of hours and they'd just talk.

Did he ever describe what he talked about?

Well, it was such a hard time for him, those busy days. And then when he'd come over to see me in the hospital, he would— Later I told you what he said about McNamara and I know how disillusioned he was with Loveless—just certain, who had no solution to the farm problem, and no original thoughts. The others—I should have asked him all that, but when you live with a man who's so busy and everything, you don't want to just question him, question him, at the end of the day. So you pick it up by what he's telling someone else or what he wants to tell you—though I might have been dying to know. I'll remember more later. Now my mind has gone so blank about so many things that I know I remembered before.

It'll come back. What gave him the most trouble besides Franklin and Stevenson in that period? Do you remember anything else in which he seems [to have had a] problem?

No. I remember—did I say it before—about him getting Clark Clifford to do that reorganization thing? It wasn't trouble. That was something he was very pleased with. Did I say that in the tape before?

No, you haven't.

Well, right after he was elected, he got Clark Clifford. I think he'd asked Clark way before election, saying, "If I get elected you must be prepared right away to do this transition thing." So, Clark had been looking into it, you know, making great things, so that everybody who was appointed to something spent those months between November and January literally at the desk of the man they would succeed. And he said there'd never been such a, you know, well-done transition. But he was thinking about that way before he was even elected.

What were your own thoughts about getting in the White House?