Listening In (17 page)

RFK:
Oh, Ed Guthman
⁸
went to a party the other night …

JFK:
Yeah.

RFK:
… and was talking to Doris Fleeson
⁹
…

JFK:
Yeah.

RFK:
… who’s evidently very bitter.

JFK:
Yeah.

RFK:
You know as she always, usually is. But I don’t know whether there might be some attention paid to her or somebody look at her or something.

JFK:
Yeah. What’s she bitter about?

RFK:
She’s just mad, generally.

JFK:
Yeah.

RFK:
You know the way she gets. [skips]

JFK:
Yeah … [skips] … be Republicans there, and she doesn’t like McCone,
¹⁰
and she’s … What is it particularly?

RFK:
Well, he didn’t … she just seemed mad, generally, but I don’t know whether … she seems always somebody that if somebody gave her a little attention occasionally then maybe she’d come around a bit.

JFK:
Well, it’s pretty difficult.

PRESIDENT KENNEDY CONFERS WITH ATTORNEY GENERAL ROBERT F. KENNEDY OUTSIDE THE OVAL OFFICE, OCTOBER 3, 1962

RFK:
Is it?

JFK:
Well, she, you know, is just a waspish woman and she’s always mad at something. She’s mad at the, because we have the Republicans or we’re not fighting hard enough for, I dunno, Civil Rights or some goddamn thing, whatever it may be. She’s always sore. I don’t have any contact with her.

RFK:
Yeah.

JFK:
And …

RFK:
Well, anyway, you might keep it in mind if something comes up.

JFK:
You never see her, do you?

RFK:
Well, I don’t, no. No … but she is just a bitter bitch.

JFK:
Yeah. She’s around yelling all the time. Somebody I … Tell me, we hear a rumor that John McCone’s gonna quit some time, at a time when it suits him.

RFK:
Ah, Marquis Childs.
¹¹

JFK:
You hear that?

RFK:
You know what Marquis Childs …

JFK:
Yeah.

RFK:
… told Ed Guthman?

JFK:
Yeah? He told Ed Guthman what?

RFK:
He said that they’re really pouring that stuff out of CIA against the administration.

JFK:
CIA is?

RFK:
Yeah. Did you see his article today?

JFK:
Yeah. Well, that was obviously based on what John told him.

RFK:
John McCone looked good in that thing.

JFK:
Yeah, but I didn’t think he looked great. No matter how …

RFK:
Well, that’s what Dave, he said, “I wrote that story in order to make sure that the record was clear on what they’re doing.”

JFK:
What? That they’re putting it out?

RFK:
Yeah. I tell you …

JFK:
But, of course, he put it that he was only sending it into the …

RFK:
Yeah, CIA.

JFK:
… CIA. But he says that CIA is pouring it out?

RFK:
Yeah. And I think he specified on behalf of John McCone.

JFK:
And McCone was right?

RFK:
Well, that John McCone, that they’re trying to make themselves look good.

JFK:
Yeah.

RFK:
And that’s what he said. “This is where it’s coming from,” he said.

JFK:
Yeah. Yeah. He’s a real bastard, that John McCone.

RFK:
Yeah.

JFK:
Yeah. We got him. Do you have an …?

RFK:
Well, he was useful at a time.

JFK:
Yeah, but, boy, it’s really evaporated.... But he’s making such a … Of course, everybody’s on to him now. That’s the trouble. He’s stupid himself. Everybody’s saying he’s a horse’s ass. But you mean that fifteen hundred terrorists and guerrillas that are being trained over there isn’t quite the way it was. They’ve got fifteen hundred students, how many of them are being trained as terrorists and guerrillas, how many have been picked up is another good question. They don’t, never have anything very precise.

RFK:
Yeah.

JFK:
The …

RFK:
Shall I give you another problem?

JFK:
Yeah.

RFK:
This TFX.
¹²

JFK:
Yeah.

RFK:
Is somebody watching that? The beginning of that whole contract, is that what it is that …

JFK:
Yeah. Yeah.

RFK:
Well, because the newspapermen think that there’s something there now.

JFK:
Not that we know. Who, what do they think is there?

RFK:
Well they think it’s, that there’s …

JFK:
What?

RFK:
Something funny that went on, but I just think that somebody better …

JFK:
Well, you know what went on? [laughs] Nobody wanted to go to Topeka, Kansas. [laughs] That’s all that went on. [laughs]

RFK:
Yeah. But I want, think we ought to make sure somebody’s looking at it. Look at the hearings and everything.

JFK:
Well, I don’t, you know I think it’s a .... your friend John McClellan.
¹³

RFK:
Yeah.

JFK:
But, actually, nothing went on, so that’s why they’re never going to find anything. I know what went on. Nothing. Because of Topeka, Kansas. [laughs] That’s where that contract would have gone, you know, that was the alternate.

RFK:
Yeah. Well, I remember the discussion.

JFK:
Yeah. Well, that was the whole thing.

RFK:
Yeah.

JFK:
But, let’s see, there’s that and Doris and what was the other matter?

RFK:
Oh, it’s just John McCone.

JFK:
Yeah, well, I don’t know what we can do about old John.

RFK:
Except the … I suppose if somebody could get the message to him that there …

JFK:
I thought that you could say that, first that …

RFK:
They’re saying …

JFK:
… all the press are saying that they’re pouring out a lot of stuff to try to make, you know, the CIA or McCone look good at the expense of the administration, that there’s a lot of talk about it on the Hill and everything. I’d like to have John know about that. So maybe he’d then decide it wasn’t so wise.

RFK:
Yeah.

JFK:
You, you aren’t going to be seeing him, are you? Is he coming …

RFK:
Yeah, I’m going to see him Thursday, Wednesday. He’s coming to the house for dinner.

JFK:
Uh-huh. Well, he’s going up tomorrow to testify. Thought you …

RFK:
He’s been …

JFK:
… might give it to him Tuesday night.

RFK:
… better, though, hasn’t he, on his testimony?

JFK:
I guess he has, though there were … Well, that thing of … I don’t know where Marq Childs got that thing, do you know?

RFK:
Yes.

JFK:
Did he get it from McCone?

RFK:
McCone. That’s what he implied to Ed Guthman.

JFK:
Yeah, well, I mean that’s not, you know, giving the dates when he sent the messages and everything. Christ, he never sent the message to anybody else. [needle skips] Why didn’t he come back from his honeymoon?

RFK:
Well, I know that …

JFK:
Huh?

RFK:
Well, you know, I understand …

JFK:
[laughs] I think that’s the only thing that, I mean, he isn’t going to …

RFK:
Yeah, I don’t think Marquis Childs was too impressed.

JFK:
Yeah?

RFK:
I mean, the way he talked, he just said that that’s where the stuff’s coming from and that they’re sticking it to you, the administration. So he just wanted to tell us …

JFK:
Yeah.

RFK:
… that that’s going on.

JFK:
Well … Well, why don’t you tell John that Wednesday night.

RFK:
OK.

JFK:
Good.

CALL FROM ATTORNEY GENERAL ROBERT F. KENNEDY, DATE UNKNOWN

In this call, JFK and RFK complain about unfavorable press coverage from Henry R. Luce, the baron of the Time-Life empire. Luce had devoted generous publicity to JFK when he was a rising politician, but as this conversation indicates, the winds could shift course unpredictably. The conversation continues with some reflection on the construction of schools on military bases, and frustrations relating to cost, reception, and the often imperfect relationship between the Kennedy administration and the leaders of the Civil Rights Movement.

RFK:
Oh, Jack?

JFK:
Yeah. How’d you think
Newsweek
was to you?

RFK:
Oh, well, I thought that it was all right. They didn’t say anything very new, did they?

JFK:
No, but I thought it was fine. I thought it was good.

RFK:
Did you?

JFK:
Sure. If you read
Time
magazine … you read them yet?

RFK:
Ye god, that’s me?

JFK:
Yeah. I saw Harry Luce today.

RFK:
Had you seen
Time
at the time you saw him?

JFK:
Yup.

RFK:
Did you say anything?

JFK:
Oh, yeah. I gave it to him for forty-five minutes. He says, “Well, I’ve been out in Phoenix and it doesn’t seem that bad to me.” I said, “Well, listen, looks bad to me.”

RFK:
I thought they were bastards.

JFK:
Yeah.

RFK:
They really went out of their way on that damn thing, didn’t they?