The Collected Works of Chögyam Trungpa: Volume 6 (61 page)

We are experiencing our existence, our being. If you look further into what that is, intellectually you can analyze it in all kinds of different ways. But if you are trying to find out what it is all about in terms of actual experience, it is hard to find the actual experience. It is hard, very hard, to find even a clear experience of confusion, one that is not colored by the rest of the emotions. In the actual experience, there is also a sense of uncertainty concerning existence or nonexistence (both being the same thing). It is not that we have a vague perception. It is a very clear perception, but it is undefinably clear. It is basically confusion. That kind of confusion is all-pervasive confusion; it happens throughout our life, in our waking hours and during our sleep. There is a rich and thick bank of uncertainty.

If we get into religious or metaphysical terminology, we could call it a soul or ego or godhead, or any number of other things. But if we do not want to use those kinds of terms because we do not know exactly what they mean, then we have to try to look as directly as possible at this experience without any preconceptions, without any terminology or labels. If we look closely, the closest experience we can get is a sense of unnameable confusion. This is a unique confusion, because it does not have a clear and distinct quality of “now I am confused” at all. You cannot even define it by saying it is confusion. And that is the kind of nondual state of confusion that goes on throughout all life.

Experience comes out of that and dissipates back into it. Energies arise and emotions appear. It all takes place within this one all-pervasive state of being, or area. I think it is very important for us to realize this background as the basic ground of everything and to understand how it arises or does not arise.

In traditional tantric imagery, this experience, or state of being, is referred to as the charnel ground. It is the place of birth and the place of death. It is the place you came out of and the place you return to. The modern equivalent of that, I suppose, is the hospital—the place where you are born and die.

Anyhow, this gigantic hospital is quite messy, but unnameably messy and nondual—that is the one point. Usually, when we think of there being no duality, no split, no schizophrenia, we tend to think that this is some kind of meditative state where there are no longer any dualistic distinctions. Therefore, everything must be okay. But somehow things don’t work that way here. Actually, we seem to have nondual samsara at this point. This is quite interesting.

Obviously, following logic, if you have duality or a split personality, there must be something in the background that was one thing to begin with. Out of that one comes many. One of the interesting things here is that somehow that basic confusion acts as a continual sense of awareness. This goes beyond purely human consciousness. It covers animals and humans and all the rest of existence.

Somehow, though it is a confused state, it does not seem to contain any doubt as such. As soon as you begin to have doubt, then there is a play back and forth. But this state is pervasive, so there is no room for this kind of play of doubt. Maybe this is the background for doubt, but there is no doubt as such. It seems to be a big, gigantic state of
BLAH.
People have misunderstood this as a mystical experience.

Perhaps in some sense it actually is a mystical experience, because unless you have some glimpse of this level of basic ignorance, you cannot have a glimpse of the rest. From this point of view, maybe finding the worst aspect of oneself is the first glimpse of the possibility of being better.

This is the basic ground of the mandala of the five buddha principles in both their samsaric and their nirvanic aspects. Both aspects have a common relationship with this background.

Well, we could talk a lot more about this basic ground, but I do not want to create any further sense of glamour regarding it. We already have some idea of it, and it would be very good if you had a chance to look into it further yourself.

Student:
Is this confusion the cloudy mind of the seventh consciousness?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
It goes back further than that.

S:
But does it manifest in the cloudy mind as well?

TR:
This is the alaya level, which goes back further than the seventh consciousness. It has some kind of texture of being, of existence. It is not cloudy in the sense of an obstruction of vision or intelligence. That would be more on the perception level. In this case, it is more sort of basically clogged up, rather than there being something that is projected and then clouded over. This is more on an existential level. That is why it can be so transparent and act as a constant awareness of ego, of me. You have a feeling of “me.” Before you mention me, there is a sense of this direction. Before you actually define it as a reference to me, there is a sense of direction toward this area and a sense of heaviness and solidity.

S:
You mean a holding back? One is always holding back or pushing something?

TR:
No, I mean even before that. This is a kind of self-existing awareness that contains an automatic reference to you already, so you don’t have to hold back or project. Before you do anything, there is the first instant that makes you start from here, rather than from all over the place. Then you have a starting point somewhere.

S:
Is this something that is carried with you from one life to another?

TR:
I suppose so, because belief in life is in itself a grasping of being. Yes. Otherwise, the continuity of life’s thread is broken.

S:
I have heard something about ego being continuous over many lives. Would this be a sense of that? It is somehow nondualistic but it is still a tendency to identify “me”?

TR:
Yes. There is that chain reaction that is basically a broken chain reaction, but it is still obviously a chain, because one link constantly interlinks with another one.

S:
Is this confusion something that we are aware of in our own lives personally, and is it also connected at the same time with some kind of more primordial confusion that we pass through each time we come into another life?

TR:
I think we are aware of it, not as something clearly defined in terms of concepts and ideas, but as you said, it is primordial. It is the first cause of reactions. It is the first activator, or the first ground that activation could come from.

S:
And this activation brings us into this form that we call body and mind?

TR:
Yes. There is a sense of this and that to begin with, and of me and mine.

Student:
I’m a little unclear about the seventh and eighth consciousnesses and the level of duality here. It seems that what you’re talking about must be a relative nonduality in comparison to, say, the nondual unconditioned energy of the dharmakaya. What you’re talking about seems to be based on some kind of an ego notion or an ego-based perception. How can this be nondual? Is there some kind of relative nonduality here?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
The reference point exists for the sake of the reference point, I suppose. As far as this particular state is concerned, it is seemingly nondual, because the definition of duality is based on perceiving “that” because of “this.” But this level of ignorance does not have the facilities to separate, to make this distinction. This is not because it is so highly unified with all the energies, as with the dharmakaya or enlightened nonduality, but because it has not developed to that extent. This is primitive nonduality. It is sort of primordial, or rather primeval—like an amoeba or something like that. But it does have a very low level of intelligence, therefore it has awareness in it as well. It is on the level of a grain of sand.

S:
So this level of consciousness can never recognize itself? It has no self-consciousness?

TR:
That’s right, it doesn’t have self-consciousness, but it has a sense of trust in oneself. It is sort of homey, you know; it’s easy to operate on that basis, on the basis of that homey quality. If you are in doubt, you just blank yourself, then you proceed. It is very convenient in some sense.

S:
Are you suggesting that some kind of manipulation is possible with this? That when you’re in doubt, you just blank yourself?

TR:
Well, that’s not exactly manipulation; it’s just the best that you can do. If you feel uncertain, you go back to the source. That is what we usually do, you know. If you lose a job somewhere else, you come back to your hometown; you stay with your mommy and daddy for a while.

S:
In books, you often read about mystical experiences that people have had where they say there was nobody there, no me, just a big void. Do you think they could be experiencing this basic confusion you’re talking about here?

TR:
It depends how far people reach. I think it is possible that they just manage to hit this level and do not get beyond it. This is like what is said in relation to tantric practice, about doing visualization without having had a glimpse of shunyata. It just leads to ego. It depends on your level of fundamental clarity and luminosity. You might experience a state of nonfunctionality, nonduality, maybe even void, but without any light. That doesn’t say very much. It’s like a deep coma.

S:
That would be where your clarity has broken down?

TR:
If there’s no clarity, things would be purely in a state of stupidity. It seems that the voidness, or emptiness, of shunyata occurs automatically if there’s some sense of clarity. But it seems that there is some clarity there at the same time, and this is the seed for the five buddha principles, or the reason why the five buddha principles do exist. Those principles are a statement of clarity in the different areas. You have clarity that is vajra-like, clarity that is ratna-like, padma-like, karma-like, and buddha-like. All the energies are a state of clarity and luminosity.

S:
So you can’t skip the stages of developing clarity and just jump to a clear experience of shunyata?

TR:
That’s possible, but I don’t think it is very healthy. You could be overwhelmed by such brilliance; it would just make you more blind. It would be like having someone switch on the sun at midnight.

S:
Is there a normal, effective way to discover what that light is?

TR:
Light?

S:
The clarity.

TR:
There obviously has to be something, otherwise there would be no relationship between the two worlds [of confusion and enlightenment], so to speak. The only way seems to be breaking through the levels of comfort that your stupidity feels. You know, when you are on a level of this kind of stupidity, there is a sense of comfort, a sense of indulgence. So I suppose the first step is becoming homeless, so that you have nowhere to go back to.

S:
Does this mean that reaching a certain degree of despair is essential?

TR:
I think so, yes. That has been said.

S:
Would this despair mean feeling that there’s no way out of your neurosis, or does it come from feeling that there
is
a way to work with it?

TR:
You do feel possibilities of working with it, but not of shaking off the whole thing completely. Then there is also despair arising from a sense of temporary inconvenience—you can’t return back to your cozy stupid home.

Student:
With this nondual confusion being so diffuse, is there any particular reason why there are just five buddha families? Is it possible there might be another one? Why have five buddha families arisen out of this ground of confusion? Is there any particular meaning to that?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
There’s no particular meaning to that. It just organically happened that way. Somehow everything breaks into four sections, along with the middle section. For instance, we have four directions. Of course, you can invent numerous directions, but even if you have a hundred directions, they are still based on the logic of the four directions. That’s just how things work. There is perception and there is appreciation of that.

In the tantric texts we sometimes find reference to 100 families and sometimes there are even 999 families. But these are exaggerated forms of the five principles. There don’t have to be five, particularly, but that’s as close as you can get. It’s sort of like a baker’s dozen.

Student:
I didn’t quite follow how this basic awareness functions as a home.

Trungpa Rinpoche:
It’s the closest thing we can come back to. It’s like reducing ourselves to being deaf and dumb—you don’t have to pay attention to too many things. You just simplify everything into one livable situation. That’s the concept of hominess—you can shut off the rest of the world, shut out the world outside. You can come back and have dinner and a good sleep. It’s a primitive kind of thing, like a nest.

S:
So being out there—

TR:
Is more demanding.

S:
Is what you’re speaking of prepersonal though? If I think of myself as having a meal and going to sleep, it feels very personal. I’m home, and that’s very personal; it’s me doing it. Is that what you’re talking about, or is it before that?

TR:
That’s right, before that, prior to that.

Student:
I have an image sometimes of being inside a rock, which would clearly be pre-this. It’s that kind of state.

Trungpa Rinpoche:
That’s right, yes. It’s vague in some sense, it’s unnameable. It doesn’t have any kind of manifest expressions.

S:
I have a sense of despair or pain that comes from the realization that I can’t go back to that level of stupidity again. It’s like I’m stuck at this mediocre stage. Does that have something to do with the despair you were talking about, that one can’t return?