The Nuremberg Interviews (48 page)

This forty-seven-year-old man, Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski, was born in Berlin on March 1, 1899. He is rather stout, tall, with regular features and blue-gray eyes. His manner is ingratiating but pompous, and his attitude is of wanting to be sincere, a fact which he repeats so often during the interview that it begins to lose its conviction.

Previous Illnesses:
He states that he had the usual childhood illnesses, but has always been constipated, even as a child; however, his constipation was aggravated in 1918 when he was gassed in the First World War. In 1942, he had “paralysis of the intestines” while serving in Russia, which he attributes to the cold climate. He spent four months in the hospital at that time and required six months of convalescence thereafter.

He has been wounded slightly in the head and right shoulder; both wounds were incurred during the First World War and were slight. He received a life pension after that war because of the gas poisoning in 1918, as well as because of the paralysis of the intestines at that time. He is quite interested in this intestinal complaint and goes into great detail about it, although he stresses that he has no such difficulties at the present time and has never felt better in his life than he does now in prison.

He states that he has had several rectal operations because of small ulcerations. He estimates that he has had minor rectal surgical operations on at least twelve different occasions. The last operation took place in January 1942. (Apparently, it was the removal of an impacted stool.) He frequently went to spas, particularly Karlsbad, where he received massages, baths, drank mineral water, and took colonic irrigations. It has been a life habit for him to take self-administered enemas quite frequently, perhaps more than once a week. Since his captivity, however, he has not required these ministrations.

Education:
He attended elementary school for four years and gymnasium for six years. That was the extent of his formal education. He states that he was a good student, but never had any desires for further study.

Occupation:
“At the age of fifteen, I became a soldier, and I was the youngest volunteer in the whole German army. I became an officer in 1917. After the war, I stayed on in the 100,000-man army.
¹
In 1924, I left the 100,000-man army because two of my sisters married Jews and things became unbearable for me. At the time, I was first lieutenant. I became a social outcast because the sentiment in the 100,000-man army was anti-Semitic.”

Did you oppose your sisters’ marriages? “No, on the contrary. I helped both sisters and their husbands to go to Rio de Janeiro in 1934. My older brother also emigrated to Rio.”

Please tell me of your career and life after 1924. “I worked for a firm in Landsberg, near the Oder, buying land and converting it to farms. I worked for that concern for ten years until 1934.”

What happened? “The owner also went to Rio de Janeiro in 1933. I remained in the concern until that time.”

And after 1933? “I was in the SS, and starting in 1934, I became a full-time member. In 1934, I was appointed lieutenant general in East Prussia.” How do you explain that you achieved such a high position in the SS in so short a time? Bach-Zelewski smiles benignly and answers, “It was because I was such a good soldier,” with apparent pride.

“I testified in court that in 1934, my headquarters was in Königsberg and that one of my first assignments, which I took on myself, was to bring an indictment against Erich Koch, district party boss and senior administrative official in East Prussia, on charges of corruption.
²
I was later reprimanded by Goering in 1936 for filing charges again Koch. And Koch remained. The case went up to Hitler and because Koch was a friend of
Goering’s, the whole thing was forgotten. Instead, in 1936, I myself was transferred to Silesia.

“Koch brought suit against me because I helped the Jews in Königsberg. Koch ordered everybody photographed who bought in Jewish stores and I personally countermanded these orders.” What were your duties in Königsberg? “I was in charge of the SS cavalry and training.” And in Silesia? “That was my best time. At that time Josef Wagner was party district administrator. At the outbreak of war, Wagner was shot because of an order from Hitler.
³
And that was because Wagner and I developed our own political ideology, so that until the outbreak of the Russian war, no Jews were shot or placed in ghettos.

“As my successor, there came a man named Ernst Schmauser in 1941.

“Since 1941, I participated in the Russian campaign.”

Do you know Rudolf Mildner? “No, he must have been after my time. I left Breslau in April 1941.”

Did you know anything about the camp at Auschwitz? “No, it didn’t exist at that time.

“I was in charge of the Jewish problem. At the time of Wagner, there were no concentration camps. General Blaskowitz protested because my predecessor had shot Jews, et cetera. But when I took over command, I ordered that there be no persecution of the Jews, no ghettos. My predecessor was a man named Udo von Woyrsch. He is a nephew of the famous Marshal von Woyrsch of the First World War, who has died long since. The great marshal would be ashamed of the deeds of his nephew. It was criminal. But when I came, I established justice and order.” At this point, Bach-Zelewski looks like a man who has thoroughly convinced himself as to his faithfulness and is quite willing to condemn and lay the blame on others.

“Auschwitz was a troop training center. There was the factory of the Goering Works and maybe the workers in that factory were from concentration camps. There might have been barracks around the factory, but it was not a concentration camp at that time, because if it had been a concentration camp, it would have been an extermination camp.” Do you mean to imply that all concentration camps were extermination camps? “No, but I know that Auschwitz became an extermination camp and so did many others. But during my time in that region, this was not the case.”
⁴

What were your duties on the Russian front? “At first, I was chief of
police and SS general on the staff of General Max von Schlenckendorff in the middle regions of Russia. Schlenckendorff was the commander of forces in the rear areas. I founded all of the police stations.”

What was the nature of your testimony in the court here in Nuremberg? “Yes, let me tell you about that. There were instances where I refused to obey Himmler’s orders. I testified about Warsaw and Himmler’s orders to shoot all of the women and children. I counteracted Himmler’s orders and even had a brigade leader and staff shot because they were carrying out these orders.”

Where were you during the burning of the Warsaw Ghetto?
⁵
“Oh, I was nowhere near there at the time. I was in Kovel, a commander there. I was a kind of division commander. It was in the Polish uprising in 1944 that I made the Polish war minister sign the capitulation. Your newspaper, the
Stars and Stripes
, carried an article about my humane activity. By 1944, there were no longer any Jews in Warsaw. But I saved the Polish women and children who would have been killed according to Himmler’s orders. A short time ago, I was interrogated by the Poles, and I was not charged with any crimes.” Have you been interrogated by the Russians? “Yes indeed, and I became a witness for the Russians. My attitude can only be seen from the diaries of Sauckel and Frank, which tell of my disobeying orders of Himmler.”

How can you be of such a sterling character and still have been an SS general until the end of the war? “Psychologically speaking, it is an interesting case. Himmler was a most cunning man. He is not exactly as he is being branded today. He undoubtedly felt that it was wise to have a man like myself who was by ancestry half Polish and by character incorruptible — I guess Himmler felt that I could be useful because of these qualities.”

Bach-Zelewski showed me three newspaper articles, one in English and two in German, which reported his evidence at the present trials. “You know that Goering was punished later on because he loudly called me a traitor and a pig in full view of the court. That was because I said to the tribunal that the war against Russia was planned by Keitel, Goering, and others. The cruel misdeeds against civilians were intentional, and I said that too. I also told how different it was in my territories when I was in charge anywhere. Whenever I took a town, I would summon the man in charge of the synagogue and assure him that no harm would come to him or to the other Jews. I figure that I saved ten thousand lives of Jews
by telling them to hide in the Pripet Marshes. Those marshes are not exactly as the word implies. They are mostly woods and canals. I told the Jews that from the marshes, they could find their way to the Russian lines.

“I was the only SS leader in Russia who was not assassinated or upon whom an assassination was never attempted. I could walk anywhere without a bodyguard.

“My best witness is General Bor-Komorowski,
⁶
and the bishop I had taken care of.” Why didn’t you do something to prevent the burning of the ghetto in Warsaw? “Himmler had specialists for ghettos. I was a specialist only in the fighting against partisans.” Did you execute partisans or order their execution? “No, I was against that policy. Frank mentions it in his diary. I made a speech in 1943 which criticized the policy already set against the partisans, and that is a policy that will now cost Frank his head. I said at that time that one cannot fight partisans with arms. My advice was to give them enough to eat, et cetera.”

Since you are opposed to everything that was accepted in the SS, how did it happen that Himmler kept you on as a leading SS general? “You have to look at Himmler’s policy from a broad viewpoint. Himmler wanted to take Hitler’s place. My name, the name Bach-Zelewski, was popular with the German people. I was very well known, respected, and beloved. If Himmler had arrested me, the German people would get suspicious and would wonder how it happened.”

At that point, Bach-Zelewski seemed to be taking stock of the effect of his words on me. I was smoking a cigarette and taking notes and made no comment. I believe he felt that it was important to explain further, and that prompted his next statement, which was more revealing. “I myself always played things very tricky. I played two different cards. I told Himmler that Hitler was plotting against him, and I told Hitler that Himmler was against him. Finally, in 1943, I had my family moved near the Swiss border, because I expected at any time to be arrested.

“I was very much opposed to the assassination attempt on Hitler’s life of July 20, 1944, because the wrong people were in it. For example, the most famous Jew killer in Russia, the notorious SS general Arthur Nebe, was part of that conspiracy.
⁷
I believe that Himmler himself had a hand in it. In my eyes, Himmler was worse than Hitler. The assassination attempt should have been directed against Himmler in the first place.

“In January and February 1945, I was near Stettin on the Oder. At the
time, I was suffering from food poisoning and was being treated in a hospital. When the war came to an end, I had been transferred from one hospital to another and was recuperating. At the beginning of May 1945, I recovered. I was not arrested. From May until August, I went on a search for Himmler. Finally, I gave myself up voluntarily in August 1945. I went from one village to another looking for Himmler in order to kill him. I also wanted to find my family, whose whereabouts I did not know. I didn’t know what the future held in store for me. At that time, I thought it was certain that since I was an SS general, I would be taken prisoner and executed at once.

“It took me two months to walk on foot through the Lüneburg heath, which is between Hanover and Hamburg, and then down to the Swiss border, where my family resided.” Why did you give yourself up? “Because I had a clear conscience and had nothing to hide.” Then why didn’t you give yourself up in May? “Everything was a big mix-up and all was confusion. I didn’t know what would happen to war criminals. To be honest, the first newspaper accounts I read about concentration camps I thought were propaganda. I didn’t realize until after the war that all of the Jews were dead. I don’t want to say I didn’t know Jews were being exterminated, because I did know that a long time ago — many years before the end of the war. But I didn’t know that it was being done on the scale — I didn’t realize it was being done in such great numbers.”

Have you yourself ever seen Jews executed? “Yes, I saw executions, however not only of Jews, but others. I remember that Himmler was once personally present when 120 were executed. On another occasion in 1941, in Minsk, Himmler ordered me to go there to witness the execution of twenty Jews.”

How were the 120 people you refer to executed? “They were shot in regular military fashion, three men shot at once. The whole group of 120 men were shot by an entire battalion. I made a detailed description in my report because it afforded an interesting view of Himmler’s character.

“At the time of the shooting of these 120, there was a young Jewish boy of twenty who had a Nordic appearance, with blue eyes and blond hair. Himmler called that boy aside from the pit where he was to be shot and asked him if he were Jewish, whether his grandparents were all Jewish. The boy replied that as far as he knew, his entire family was Jewish. Then Himmler said that he couldn’t help the boy, and the boy was executed
along with the others. You could see how Himmler tried to save the boy’s life.”

Are you giving me this example as an instance of the nobleness of Himmler? “No, but I just want to show that Himmler was not as he is branded today. He was not a man who was hard-hearted in the sight of blood. He was hard-hearted by reason of a fanatic ideology. But he was undoubtedly soft and cowardly.

“After the execution, we went to look over an insane asylum for very sick inmates. It was a very nauseating sight. Himmler, Nebe, and I went through that institution, and I was present when Himmler talked with Nebe about liquidating the inmates of that institution. I think that the reason for this was that Himmler wanted to give me a sign, a hint, that is, that my younger brother, Victor, who was mentally sick, would be liquidated in the same way if I didn’t stay in line.