What Will It Take to Make A Woman President?: Conversations About Women, Leadership and Power (73 page)

JZ
: Well, I think “women’s issues” strike a chord with female politicians in a way that they just don’t even for well-intentioned male politicians. It’s just something that female politicians probably relate to a lot better and have immediate experience with. But even beyond that, just from the point of view of my generation, I think visibility is so important in inspiring future generations of leaders. Visibility is so important; we can’t be what we can’t see, essentially. If we don’t see female politicians out there in equal numbers to men, then going into politics, or leadership in general, doesn’t seem like a viable option for us. I think it’s about their ability to make those decisions and to feel the connection to women’s issues, but also to continue to fight the cycle that perpetuates the same type of people maintaining power and allow more women to get politically involved in the future.

MS
: Obviously there are serious structural obstacles as well, but why do you think there are such low numbers of women in Congress? I mean, 20 percent women is somewhat of an improvement, but it’s far from parity. Why do you think there are such low numbers? Sheryl Sandberg also proposed that part of the reason may be that women don’t tend to aspire to these types of leadership positions. There are a lot of studies that point to the fact that women often have to be really prodded to run for political office. Do you think of that as a factor?

JZ
: Yeah, I definitely agree that there are structural barriers. There’s definitely ingrained sexism. But I do tend to agree with Sheryl Sandberg’s perspective, in that I think there is something internal going on, and I can also see it amongst my generation. We’ve had so many opportunities and are always told that we could achieve what we want to, but at the same time, not to harp on the example of the Hillary Clinton/Sarah Palin dichotomy, but I think it’s such a great example of what happens to women who do try
to run. The media, and society in general, are so much harder on women who try to enter politics than men and that makes running for office seem unappealing. It would take a really determined and self-confident young woman to view that treatment and want to subject herself to it. I think that just on a personal level, no one wants to be bullied, no one wants to put themselves in that position, and that’s the position we have put female politicians in. Also, just in terms of leadership more generally, I think there are still gender stereotypes that encourage women to remain silent. I see this in the classroom all the time, even at the collegiate level, where boys are constantly the ones raising their hands to say just about anything, and young women either don’t really speak at all, or only speak when they feel like they have some perfectly formulated answer and something really valuable to say. And they don’t participate in the same way and they don’t put themselves out there in the same way, and I think that’s a huge factor in determining if they want to become a leader or not.

MS
: Where do you think that is coming from? Is it from the culture? The media? I don’t think that women are innately that way. Just as you say that you notice this in your peers, I have two daughters, eleven and fifteen, and while they’re certainly more centered and confident than I ever was, I still see those same forces pulling at them and their friends—all these destructive influences and messages directed at girls. It’s hard to avoid. I’d like to think that there has been progress made since I was in college. Why do you think it is that young women, even at a place like Barnard, would still be that way?

JZ
: Yeah, and to clarify, I don’t want to generalize, because there are plenty of young women that are incredibly outgoing and are amazing leaders. But I still think that phenomenon exists, largely because of the media. I think there are a few different factors, but one thing—just
looking back on my own experience—I think so many more girls were so much more vocal in fourth and fifth and even sixth grade, and I feel like there was a lot of equality in the classroom at that point. It was sort of around the time that young women began to realize that there were these different standards . . . beauty standards in the media I think had a huge impact on the way we viewed ourselves and reconsidered our relationships with others. It’s hard for young women to look at the way other women are objectified in the media, how they’re Photoshopped to perfection, and not feel that we have to live up to this perfectionist standard. This is a phenomenon that just doesn’t occur for our male counterparts. And I think once we realize that there’s a perfect image we’re not living up to, we begin to question ourselves in all aspects of our lives. I think it starts with reconsidering our bodies . . . but it really feeds into everything that we do. And I think that negative body image has a huge impact on the rest of our lives, and it’s really not talked about in that context that often. I think also—again I don’t want to make generalizations about all families—but I grew up with people whose parents still enforced different standards for their children based on gender. I think that is still very much a reality. And I think girls’ relationships with their mothers are critical, as well—if they see their moms in these relationships with their fathers, where maybe they’re not even treated as “less than,” but they’re taking very traditional roles and they’re kind of teaching their daughters through example that the man is head of the household, that has an impact. I think that phenomenon still exists in many parts of this country. So there are a lot of factors, I would say.

MS
: I feel like there’s this popular misconception that younger generations of women today are more apathetic and don’t relate to feminism and take all these hard-won rights for granted. That’s never been my impression, but I’m curious . . . how old are you, by the way?

JZ
: I’m twenty.

MS
: You’re twenty; you’re around the exact age that we hear this. You are on a college campus and interact with young women of your generation all the time. What is your sense of that stereotype? Is that accurate?

JZ
: I think it’s really interesting. I think it is a misconception, but I can see where people get it from, because I think that some women my age reject a feminist label, but they’re definitely not rejecting feminist values and the movement at large. I think young women—well, again, everything I’ll say is a generalization [
laughs]
—but I think most young women are very much aware of how much progress has been made and are grateful for that. And if you ask those specific questions, like, “Do you want this double standard to exist?” Obviously, they don’t. They are overwhelmingly—if not unanimously—pro-equality. But it’s the label. I think that there’s so much misinformation out there about what the feminist movement even is. So I think the stereotype that my generation rejects feminism comes from the fact that a lot of people in my generation reject the word “feminism,” but I definitely don’t think they reject the movement and the ideals. I think, actually, we embrace those ideals probably more than any other generation. I think there actually was a study—I’m not sure who did it but I saw on Twitter or Facebook—where something like 30 percent of my generation does identify as feminist. So that was pretty gratifying.

MS
: And one of the things that I’ve been hearing a lot in my interviews, because I’ve also been asking older generations what they think of the younger generations, and the positive way to look at it which I am hearing, which I think is the accurate answer, is feminism is going to look different, one would hope, in different generations. So what does feminism look like in your generation now?

JZ
: Yeah, I think it’s interesting, because the advent of feminist blogging and social media, which I really do think is the core of this generation of feminists—that’s where we convene and where all these conversations are happening—has definitely changed the face of feminism. And we’re sort of seeing the shift from where, to my understanding, in the seventies feminism really was this traditional social movement, to something that we can’t really name in the same way anymore. I think one of the major criticisms older feminists have of our generation is that we’re not on the ground as much, but I think what gets lost in that conversation is the way that we’re still mobilizing and participating in activism, it just has taken a new form. For example, social media enables thousands and thousands of people to target corporations for selling really offensive products or having really offensive advertisements and start petitions and campaigns against them. We’re successful. We get them to take down those ads or take those products off the shelves. So it’s just a very different way of looking at what activism can be. And I don’t think we’re any less active; I think if anything we’ve made that activism more accessible and a lot easier for a lot of people, internationally even. So in that sense, we probably have even a wider reach than there was in the seventies.

MS
: I actually agree with you. I also sometimes think the misconception comes from the fact that there is really not as much intergenerational dialogue or connection. Very rarely do young women and older women get in a room to actually talk about these things. Do you think that’s part of the issue? Do you think we need more intergenerational sharing and to work together more so that we can better understand and hopefully learn from each other?

JZ
: Absolutely. I think it’s so vital for my generation to learn from older feminists and I really wish that there were more intergenerational
conversations. It’s interesting—I think women my age actually crave mentorship. It’s a topic that keeps coming up amongst my friends and amongst other young activists. Older feminists often complain that we’re not learning from them or reaching out to them, but at the same time they don’t seem to be seeking out mentees either. I think so many young women would love to learn from older women but don’t know how to forge that connection, and that relationship has to be a two-way street as well. But I also think something like what Courtney [Martin] and Vanessa [Valenti] are doing with their impact paper [about the future of online feminism] is so important, because from what I understand a really big part of their project is going to older feminists and explaining why online feminism is so important and why it needs to be sustainable, and it really is about starting those conversations. From what I understand, so much of the tension that exists between generations is just a misunderstanding on both parts of what the other is doing right now and what they can do for the other. Yeah, I definitely think that there needs to be more communication.

MS
: I’ve been trying to stay away from the word “feminism” too much in my interviews, and it doesn’t always come up, but when I talk to people like you—or when I interviewed Jessica Valenti, who founded Feministing, and of course I run
Feminist.com
, and you with The FBomb and your book—we just have to talk about that word. Some people say we don’t need that word anymore and that word can be so divisive. There are so many misconceptions I deal with, with using that word, that sometimes I myself wish I could avoid it, but it is the domain name, so there’s not much I can do about it [laughs]. But you have been unabashedly proud to call yourself a feminist, not only with your blog, but with your book—you’ve not only claimed it, but you passionately defend and promote its use. I’m just curious, what is your sense of why keeping that word
is important? I’m always confused when people, especially younger generations of women, say they’re not feminists. Do you want to sometimes shake them and explain what the dictionary definition is of the word and say, “How can you say that?” Isn’t it Gloria Steinem who said “A woman has two choices: She’s either a feminist or a masochist”? Any comments or thoughts on the pros and cons of that word, especially as it relates to young women’s identification with the word and the movement?

JZ
: Yeah, it’s something I think a lot about, and I don’t think I have a decisive answer on it. It’s something I’m definitely still trying to figure out . . . because I see the argument for why a term like “humanist” might be more accurate and might actually be more beneficial to the movement in getting people involved. “Feminism” is definitely a really tricky word for a lot of reasons and a lot of it is misinformation, but I know a lot of it is also women of color and other groups who have historically felt alienated by it. There are very legitimate reasons and not-so-legitimate reasons, which makes it even more complex. One of the main reasons that I do insist on calling myself a feminist is to honor the history of the movement. And of course there are definitely pitfalls in that history; there were things that I think may not have gone as well as they could have, but at the same time, it really is an incredible movement from a historical perspective. Feminists have done such incredible things in such a relatively short period of time and I like to honor that and recognize that the current feminist movement, while it may be different than the past, didn’t occur in a vacuum. That history is integral to what we do today. Obviously we’re doing our own thing, but it’s important to note that it is a continuation of decades of work. But even so, it’s something I definitely struggle with because inherently what I’m finding is that by calling myself a feminist, from the outset you’re kind of putting yourself on the defensive, where people will automatically question you about it, often in quite a hostile
way, which can be really counterproductive. It’s definitely something I still grapple with.

MS
: My attitude has always been, rather than searching for another word, finding ways to redefine it. I think what has been helpful is that more and more men are calling themselves feminists. Speaking of men, we’ve been talking a lot about young women and how they’ve evolved, but what is your sense about young men today? Part of the problem has been that all of these topics have always been thought of as women’s issues, which as you were saying might benefit from calling them “humanist,” since these really are humanity’s issues. Do you think the movement is widening to better include men as allies?