Conversations with Myself (21 page)

27. FROM A LETTER TO MAKI MANDELA, DATED 27 MARCH 1977

As you know, I was baptised in the Methodist Church and was educated in Wesleyan schools – Clarkebury, Healdtown and at Fort Hare. I stayed at Wesley House. At Fort Hare I even became a Sunday School teacher. Even here I attend all church services and have enjoyed some of the sermons…I have my own beliefs as to the existence or non-existence of a Supreme Being and it is possible that one could easily explain why mankind has from time immemorial believed in the existence of a god.

I’m sure you know that so-called European civilization was largely influenced by the ancient civilization of the Greeks and the Romans. Yet despite their advanced scientific knowledge in many fields, the Greeks had no less than 14 gods. You have heard of the names of some of them – Apollo, Atlas, Cupid, Jupiter, Mars, Neptune, Zeus, etc. A poll was recently taken in England to find out the number of people who believed in god and, if I remember my facts correctly, less than 30 per cent of the total population were found to be believers. I’m making no comment on the matter one way or the other except to say that, from experience, it’s far better, darling, to keep religious beliefs to yourself. You may unconsciously offend a lot of people by trying to sell them ideas they regard as unscientific and pure fiction.

28. FROM A LETTER TO ZINDZI MANDELA, DATED 25 MARCH 1979

About the same time a priest told us about a Nepalese who had powers similar to those of the son of Satan. According to the priest, the Nepalese killed cats, dogs and pigs just by looking at their eyes. He also claimed that he could dispose of human beings with equal ease. The priest also told us that a Christian Minister in that country informed the Nepalese that the power of God was greater than evil in man’s heart. He then challenged the Nepalese to a trial of strength. The story goes on that on an appointed day the Minister and his elders confronted the Asian and also beseeched the Almighty to give them strength to demonstrate the superiority of the Xian [Christian] faith. The outcome was the conversion of the Nepalese to Xianity [Christianity].

My one difficulty about that sermon is that I don’t like miracles that always occur in distant lands; especially if they are not capable of scientific explanation. This tale is difficult to believe even though told from the pulpit. However, if it is intended to depict [the battle] of good against evil, of justice over cruelty, then we accept the symbolism.

29. FROM A LETTER TO PRINCESS ZENANI LA MANDELA DLAMINI, DATED 25 MARCH 1979
¹¹

But the habit of attending to small things and of appreciating small courtesies is one of the important marks of a good person.

30. FROM A CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT WHETHER BLACK CONSCIOUSNESS PRISONERS ON ROBBEN ISLAND FELT THE ANC (AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS) PRISONERS WERE TOO MODERATE
¹²

No, I don’t think so, but quite a number of them joined us, and people had wrong conceptions about the ANC, because the first thing a politician does is to be aggressive towards the enemy. But that is all right, may be all right, but you want to educate people and to convert them to your point of view, and we did that with the warders in prison. And you can’t do that by being aggressive. By being aggressive you drive them away, and you make them fight back too, whereas a softer approach, especially when you are confident of a case, brings about results far more than aggression.

31. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL

STENGEL: Over the weekend you told a parable, a parable of the sun and the wind?

MANDELA: Oh, I see, yes.

STENGEL: I thought that was a very lovely story and I thought that maybe we could use it somewhere in the book.

MANDELA: Yes.

STENGEL: Could you retell it right now?

MANDELA: Yes, what was important is to make sure that the message of peace went down deeply in the thinking and approach of our people…I was…contrasting the strength of peace over and above that of force and I told the incident…of an argument between the sun and the wind, that the sun said, ‘I’m stronger than you are’ and the wind says, ‘No, I’m stronger than you are.’ And they decided, therefore, to test their strength with a traveller…who was wearing a blanket. And they agreed that the one who would succeed in getting the traveller to get rid of his blanket would be the stronger. So the wind started. It started
blowing
and the
harder
it blew, the
tighter
the traveller pulled the blanket around his body. And the wind blew and blew but it could not get him to discard the blanket. And, as I said, the
harder
the wind blew, the
tighter
the visitor tried to hold the blanket around his body. And the wind eventually gave up. Then the sun started with its rays, very mild, and they increased in strength and as they increased…the traveller felt that the blanket was unnecessary because the blanket is for warmth. And so he decided to relax it, to loosen it, but the rays of the sun became stronger and stronger and eventually he threw it away. So by a gentle method it was possible to get the traveller to discard his blanket. And this is the parable that through peace you will be able to convert, you see, the most determined people, the most committed to the question of violence, and that is the method we should follow.

1. FROM A LETTER TO THE REV FRANK CHIKANE, DATED 21 AUGUST 1989
¹

Victory in a great cause is measured not only by reaching the final goal. It is also a triumph to live up to expectations in your lifetime.

2. FROM A LETTER TO SHEENA DUNCAN, DATED 1 APRIL 1985
²

The ideals we cherish, our fondest dreams and fervent hopes may not be realised in our lifetime. But that is besides the point. The knowledge that in your day you did your duty, and lived up to the expectations of your fellow men is in itself a rewarding experience and magnificent achievement.

3. FROM A LETTER TO PROFESSOR SAMUEL DASH, DATED 12 MAY 1986
³

You cannot unlock the gates of this prison so that I can walk out as a free man, nor can you improve the conditions under which I have to live. But your visit has certainly made it easy for me to bear all the grimness that has surrounded me over the past 22 years.

4. FROM HIS UNPUBLISHED AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL MANUSCRIPT WRITTEN IN PRISON

I am also aware that massive efforts have been made here and abroad for my release and that of other political prisoners, a campaign which has given us much inspiration and shown us that we have hundreds of thousands of friends. Next to my wife’s affection and that of the family as a whole, few things have inspired me more than the knowledge that in spite of all that the enemy is doing to isolate and discredit us people everywhere never forget us. But we know the enemy very well – they would like to release us from a position of strength and not of weakness and this is an opportunity they have missed forever. However inspiring it is to know that our friends are insisting on our release, a realistic approach clearly shows that we must rule out completely the possibility that such a demand will succeed. But I am highly optimistic, even behind prison walls I can see the heavy clouds and the blue sky over the horizon, that however wrong our calculations have been and whatever difficulties we still must face, that in my lifetime I shall step out into the sunshine, walk with firm feet because that event will be brought about by the strength of my organisation and the sheer determination of our people.

5. FROM A LETTER TO HILDA BERNSTEIN, DATED 8 JULY 1985

Talking about progress, the mind goes back to ’62 when I listened to the experiences of Ben Bella’s colleagues, which were very informative.
⁴
In some of these discussions I faced youngsters, some barely in their twenties, but who spoke as veterans and with authority on vital issues on which, to say the least, I was a mere amateur. I almost blushed with shame and asked myself why we were so far behind in this regard. But now things have changed, and it is a source of inspiration to know that SA [South Africa] is producing determined young people whose level of awareness is remarkably high. If your knees are becoming stiff, your eyes dim and your head is full of silver, you must take comfort in the knowledge that your own contribution is an important factor in this ferment.

6. FROM A LETTER TO LORD NICHOLAS BETHELL, DATED 4 JUNE 1986
⁵

But I must say that it is a matter of grave concern to sit on the sidelines and be a mere spectator in the tragic turmoil that is tearing our country apart, and that is generating such dangerous passions. It may well be that the days when nations will turn mighty armies into powerful peace movements, and deadly weapons into harmless ploughshares are still years away. But it is a source of real hope that there are today world organisations, governments, heads of state, influential groups and individuals who are striving earnestly and courageously for world peace.

7. FROM A LETTER TO HILDA BERNSTEIN, DATED 8 JULY 1985

The mind keeps on churning out these and other long-forgotten events, some involving close friends who are no more. It disturbs us that in most of these cases it was not possible for us to pay our last respects to them, or even to send messages of sympathy to their beloved ones – Moses and Bram, Michael and JB, Duma and Jack, Molly and Lilian, MP and Julian, George and Yusuf. The list is very long and I cannot hope to exhaust it here. But the brutal manner in which Ruth [First] died shocked and embittered us beyond words and, almost three years since that tragic event, the wounds have not completely healed. As you will readily concede, few of her friends were not at one time or other bruised by her sharp tongue. But none will deny that she was a fully committed and highly capable person whose death was a severe setback to us all.

8. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT WHEN HE RETURNED TO PRISON AFTER HIS PROSTATE OPERATION IN NOVEMBER 1985

STENGEL: So were you surprised when they took you to that cell by yourself?

MANDELA: No…the Commanding Officer was then Brigadier Munro, he came to fetch me, and along the way from the hospital to the jail he said, ‘No we are not taking you back to your friends now, to your colleagues.
⁶
You are going to stay alone.’ I said, ‘Why?’ He said, ‘I don’t know, I’ve just been given those instructions from the head office.’

STENGEL: But you had not asked to be [transferred]?

MANDELA: No, no, no, oh no. I had not asked, but of course
once
they did that, I decided that I was going to
use
it to start negotiations and because it would be a
sensitive
affair…The propaganda of the government in the elections has always been that ‘We will never talk to the ANC [African National Congress]’…It’s a terrorist organisation of people who are bent on murder and destruction of property. So to make a move, the element of confidentiality had to be there, and when I was staying alone I could maintain that element of confidentiality. And so although I
missed
my friends, and I didn’t want to be separated from them, I then decided that…I was going to use that opportunity and that’s what I did. And I told my colleagues that we should make no issue about this matter. I didn’t tell them of course that I was going to use it.
If
I had told my friends that I was going to use it for the purpose of starting negotiations, we would not have been negotiating now. They would have
rejected
it. So what I decided to do was to start negotiations
without
telling them, and then confront them with a
fait accompli
.

.....................................................................................

Handwritten draft of a letter proposing talks between the ANC and the government,
c.
1985.

9. FROM THE UNPUBLISHED SEQUEL TO HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY

My comrades in prison were men of honesty and principle. Bearing in mind how some revolutionaries elsewhere in the world had betrayed [the] struggle on the eve of victory or soon thereafter, they were suspicious of individual initiative. If my comrades had known beforehand about my plan to talk to the government, their concern about one man who was isolated from them doing so would have been understandable. The headquarters of the organisation [African National Congress] was in Zambia where the leaders who conducted the struggle were stationed. Only they…knew the strategic moment to make the move. The ANC never deviated from the principle that liberation of our country would ultimately be brought about through dialogue and negotiation.

Nevertheless I approached the government without even telling my fellow prisoners. It was during these talks that Dr Niël Barnard, head of the apartheid Intelligence Service, proposed that their team had decided to start confidential discussions with Thabo Mbeki, adding that from their sources, he was one person who was in favour of negotiations.
⁷

I objected to this proposal on the ground that such talks could never be secret, seeing that they would take place in a foreign country, I pointed out that they should contact the President or the Secretary General of the ANC, Oliver Tambo or Alfred Nzo respectively.
⁸
I added that to start such unauthorized talks might ruin the future of a talented young man’s political career. I thought that Barnard had accepted my advice.

I was therefore shocked when I later discovered that Barnard had ignored my advice and contacted Thabo Mbeki. But the latter was wise enough and refused to engage in clandestine talks without the consent of the organisation. He reported to the President who authorized him and his friend, Jacob Zuma, to meet Barnard.
⁹

10. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ON THE TALKS ABOUT TALKS IN THE 1980S
¹⁰

STENGEL: And you kept telling them that the armed struggle is one in reaction to what the government had initially done, and that since there was no room for peaceful or constitutional protest that was left.

MANDELA: Yes.

STENGEL: What was their response to that?

MANDELA: Well, they couldn’t answer that question, of course. At first they adopted the normal attitude that violence is just criminal action which they could not tolerate. And the point I was making was that the
means
which are used by the oppressed to advance their struggle are determined by the oppressor himself. Where the oppressor uses peaceful methods, the oppressed will
also
use peaceful methods, but if the oppressor uses force the oppressed will also retaliate in force. That was my argument…But a
question
which they raised, which I felt was very reasonable…was ‘
We
have been throughout the year making public statements that we will never negotiate with ANC [African National Congress];
now
you say we should negotiate. We are going to lose
credibility
with our people. How do we overcome that? We can talk to you and perhaps our people can accept that, but we can’t talk to the ANC as such because it would be a complete
radical
departure from the policy that we have put forward before. We will
lose
credibility.’ That is the question that they asked.

And I found it a bit difficult to
meet
that question, and
I
said to them, ‘
You
have been applying apartheid. You have said blacks should be taken back, you know, to the countryside. You have changed that now. You had the pass system as, what-you-call, one of your major policies, and you have repealed the pass laws. You have not lost credibility…The question of negotiations must be looked at from that point of view. You must be able to tell your people that there can be no solution [to] this question without the ANC.’ That was my approach. But it was a difficult question to answer because it was true.

STENGEL: So, and the other issues that they wanted to discuss with you, was also the issue of group rights: how can we protect the interest of the white minority?

MANDELA: Yes, Yes.

STENGEL: What did you explain to them about that during those discussions?…

MANDELA: I referred them to my article in 1956, in a journal called
Liberation
, where I wrote…[that] the Freedom Charter is not a blueprint for socialism.
¹¹
In so far as Africans are concerned, it is actually a blueprint for capitalism because Africans would have…the opportunity, which they have
never
had before, of owning property wherever they want, and capitalism will flourish amongst them as never before.
That
was the theme I put forward.

11. CONVERSATION WTH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT CONSTANTIABERG MEDI-CLINIC, WHERE HE WAS TREATED FOR TUBERCULOSIS

STENGEL: What was Constantiaberg like?

MANDELA: Oh, very good. In fact, the first day I was taken there, Kobie Coetsee came to see me
very
early in the morning and then they brought my breakfast. The first day I arrived, they didn’t know the diet that was prescribed for me…a cholesterol-free diet, which meant I should take no eggs, no bacon. But this particular morning they brought two eggs and a lot of bacon and then cereal, [
chuckles
] and then the
Major
, who was in charge of me in [Pollsmoor Prison] said, ‘No, Mandela, you can’t eat this food – it’s against the instruction of the doctor.’ I said, ‘Today I am prepared to die; I am going to eat it.’ [
laughs
] Yes, I hadn’t had eggs and bacon for a
long
time.

12. CONVERSATION WITH RICHARD STENGEL ABOUT HIS MOVE FROM CONSTANTIABERG MEDI-CLINIC TO VICTOR VERSTER PRISON IN DECEMBER 1988

MANDELA: I [was] already used to the habits of warders…And [on] this particular occasion I could
see
[from] the movement that
something
was going to happen, there was something extraordinary…The Major, who was in charge, was very tense and quite
irritable
, and there were a lot of consultations amongst the warders and there was
vigilance
in preventing anybody from coming into my ward, allowing only…the nurse that was supposed to be on duty…and I could see something was afoot but I didn’t know what it was. Eventually, in the evening, the Major came in and said, ‘Mandela, prepare yourself. We are taking you to Paarl.’
¹²
And I said, ‘What for?’ He says, ‘Well, that is where you are going to be now.’ And at nine o’clock we left with a big escort…It was dark when we arrived and we went into this big bedroom…but it had a lot of insects. Of course…I’m used to insects because that is a
wild
place, wild in the sense of liking it, you know? If you like nature, you will be
happy
in that place. But it had a
lot
of insects, some I had never seen before – a wide variety, rich variety of insects, and…centipedes, you see, that move around…I had a lot of those things.