Red or Dead (70 page)

In Mexico?

In Mexico, yes. And I think the mistake was to take Charlton off. That was the signal to the Germans. All they had to do was pile into the attack. As long as Bobby was there, they had got to cover their
own goal and they weren’t going to get the equaliser or the winning goal. But that’s a matter of opinion.

Well, you see. That’s, again, the same. Me, who was manager at one time. You, as prime minister. You’ve to make that decision. Now the manager made it and things went wrong. Now if he hadn’t have taken Charlton off, they may have lost just the same.

May have lost the same, yes.

So he, in his wisdom, thought he was right. So you would have did the same thing, and so would I.

Maybe, maybe. Well, you’ve got to follow your judgement.

Sure you have, said Bill Shankly. If you can’t make decisions, you’re nothing. Nothing …

Well, you’ve got to take decisions that’ll get attacked, misrepresented, sometimes praised. Sometimes you make a big mistake and you don’t get attacked for it. They may not know it. May not see it. But you know you’ve made the mistake. And then you are lucky if other people don’t find it out …

They don’t know about it, said Bill Shankly. Because it’s only you that knows it.

Harold Wilson smiled again. And Harold Wilson said, They are looking at a different part of the field.

Yes, yes, said Bill Shankly. Er, you’ve been thirty-five years on the Merseyside?

Harold Wilson sat back in his seat. Harold Wilson nodded again. And Harold Wilson said, I came here, yes, in 1932, to live here and go to school. Then I was elected for Ormskirk in 1940, which included a lot of Liverpool, thirty-seven thousand people within the Liverpool boundary, in West Derby, Dovecot and Croxteth. And then there was boundary changes. And I went to the new division of Huyton, still keeping Kirby. And now, of course, Huyton has lost Kirby. And all the time, it’s been growing. Kirby’s an entirely different place. It was a little farm village when I first represented it.

A big place now, said Bill Shankly. Been there many times.

Harold Wilson said, Yes. Big place now.

So that’s a long time, said Bill Shankly. I mean, to be in the same place. Now, I mean, I know that everything is difficult in politics, Mr Wilson. Everything is difficult. I mean, you are the leader
of the country. And not long ago, er, we went into the Common Market. I don’t know anything really about the Common Market. Candidly, my whole life’s been football. And I’m not exactly ignorant about other facts, of course. I mean, everyday life. But the Common Market? Er, you took us into the Common Market?

Harold Wilson shook his head. And Harold Wilson said, Well, it’d been going on since 1962. And we always said, It’s good for us, if we’re not going to be crippled by it, and if it doesn’t break up the Commonwealth. And this is what the Labour Party said in opposition then. And when we were in government, we applied. And De Gaulle vetoed it, as he’d vetoed Harold Macmillan. Then the Conservatives took us in, Mr Heath, but I didn’t think he had the country behind him. We said we would negotiate. And if we didn’t get the right terms, we would recommend coming out. Then we had a referendum and the country decisively voted. Now nobody is in any doubt. We are a democratic country. People who fought hard against what I was saying in the referendum have loyally accepted it. I think that’s the kind of country that we are. And we’ve got big problems to solve. We’ve got to strengthen our own economy to make us better partners as well as to survive and prosper there. And I have some criticisms of other European countries. But mainly their football style again. Back to football. Back to football again …

Yes, said Bill Shankly. Well, I mean, I think, whether we are in the Common Market or not, I think we’ve still got to work hard. So it wouldn’t make any difference really.

Harold Wilson sat forward in his seat again. And Harold Wilson said, There is an argument for being in, an argument for being out. But on balance I came out strongly, in the end, for staying in. But it’s a big league is this one. You can’t go in as cripples. And you’ve got to build up your economic strength. I mean, people who say we’re done for, they’re totally wrong. There’s more ingenuity and hard work, possibly, in this country than people realise. And we’re showing it in our exports now, how well we’re doing in a world of depression. But we’ve got to pull to our full strength or we can be a drag.

Mr Wilson, said Bill Shankly, ever since I can remember, there’s been rumours that we were finished …

Yeah, yeah.

And pessimism. I mean, there’s always a shortage of optimism and people willing to get their jackets off. But, I mean, I was born and brought up in the pits. I was in the pit when I was fourteen.

Which coalfield were you brought up in?

I was in the Ayrshire coalfield.

Yes, I used to know them very well. Very well. I used to know every miners’ leader in Ayrshire, when I was younger.

Well, said Bill Shankly, we were in William Beard and Company, as they were then …

Harold Wilson said, Beard and Dolmillington.

It was. Beard and Dolmillington.

The managing director, I seem to remember, I’m going back thirty years, was called A. K. McKosh.

That’s him, said Bill Shankly. Well, I was in that area. So that, even then, I mean, there was nothing but pessimism. Because it was a mining area. And if there was no pit. And you couldn’t play football. You were out. You had no job.

Well, you know, we are developing new sources of coal mining in Scotland, areas that were nearly closed. We’re putting in a lot of money now, to develop new seams, because there’s new methods now, for mining …

Well, said Bill Shankly, this area where I am really was only scratched. And I think it’s a full coalfield. Well, I didn’t think that they should have shut down …

We’re going out to sea. The North Sea has got coal as well as oil. And there are new ways of getting them.

Under the sea at Fife and all.

Harold Wilson nodded again. And Harold Wilson said, I know. I like going to coal-mining areas. I like getting out of London. I’ve got nothing against London, some wonderful people there. But if you’re going to have any job to do with politics or running this country, you’ve got to get out and meet people where they are. Not just in London. I’m not worried about demonstrators. I don’t worry about them. This afternoon I was surprised, even in Liverpool, where I’ve been, you know, a couple of times a month, there would be crowds outside. They weren’t demonstrating either, when I was opening a community health centre. But I like to be out of London on a Friday and go around the
country and meet people. Meet real people. Get away from the
hothouse
atmosphere of politics.

As you say, said Bill Shankly, I think the Houses of Commons is a hothouse. I mean, being in it all week. I mean, it must be a tremendous feeling to get out of it and get away?

Yes. It’s a great job to do. But everybody who’s there will do it better if they refresh themselves. As so many do, going to their constituencies, or going, as I’ve got to do, all over the country.

Yes, said Bill Shankly. You can be too close to it too long. You can’t see the wood for the trees.

That’s right. You need a breath of fresh air.

Especially if you come to Liverpool, said Bill Shankly.

Harold Wilson laughed. And Harold Wilson said, Fresh air in every way. I’ve been here three times in the last month. And I shall be coming up five times in the next couple of months …

Yeah, well, said Bill Shankly. And then, of course, there is two good teams here, too.

Yes, I once paid you that tribute at a football dinner. I said you were the fairest-minded man I’ve ever met when you said there were two good teams in football, in Merseyside.

Bill Shankly laughed.

No, I did say, if you remember, I criticised you a bit for that, for not mentioning Tranmere Rovers …

Yeah, laughed Bill Shankly again. Yeah.

You then agreed with me. And you did a lot to help Tranmere Rovers from Liverpool.

I did last season, said Bill Shankly. For a little while, yes.

Before that, though. When you were manager. I mean, there was the goalkeeper …

Oh yes, said Bill Shankly. Tommy Lawrence. We gave them some money and some players. We’ve done quite a bit. Mind you, we were trying to help ourselves as well.

That makes sense, doesn’t it? Bread cast on the waters …

But we did try to help them, said Bill Shankly. There is no doubt about that. And we’ve helped many people. And if you can’t help people, then it’s a bad day.

Yes, you are helping yourself but finding honourable work for
someone who was reaching the end of his First Division career. And, at the same time, helping to develop some young lads.

Yes, said Bill Shankly. Yes. Er, I’ve been playing, I have played football all my life. And I’ve been in the game forty-three years now. And I try to keep fit. I mean, I’ve got an easier task than you, of course. But you now tell me you’ve lost a lot of weight? And I think you have. You look well …

Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, I have lost about a stone in weight.

So how do you keep fit then, asked Bill Shankly.

Not in the ways I would like to. I would like a lot more exercise. When I was at Downing Street before, I used to play golf every weekend when I could, you know, and so I played a bit of golf. And then I got a gammy knee a couple of years ago. And now I’ve taken it up again this year. My problem is there’s so much, things are moving at such a pace all the time, internationally and nationally, that I haven’t had the exercise. I take the dog for a walk. He likes that. But I haven’t had time to play golf since I came back from my holidays.

So, said Bill Shankly, in actual fact …

The answer is not enough!

Mr Wilson, said Bill Shankly, not enough. But I think that possibly dieting, if you’re not getting too much exercise, would …

Harold Wilson leant forward. And Harold Wilson said, The real truth is, you know, it’s not dieting. Although the doctor thought I was mad, I started drinking a lot of beer. I like it …

Yes, yes.

It makes me eat less. Now I think I am a bad guinea pig, because most people put weight on with beer …

They do, said Bill Shankly. They do.

But it works for me.

Well, said Bill Shankly, if you drink more beer and you eat less, then, I mean, and you are losing weight, then it must be working. Because you look fit now. And you must have shed a few pounds.

Harold Wilson nodded again. And Harold Wilson said, I’m much thinner. I’m lower now than I have been for fifteen years.

And is it possible that you could get a routine, said Bill Shankly. That you could go and have a walk? Two or three miles?

Harold Wilson shook his head. And Harold Wilson said, I can’t get the time. But that dog is always waiting, if I get a chance of an hour. And he’s now found the way to the local pub from Chequers.

That’s your dog, Paddy?

My dog Paddy, yes. A great, big, soft, daft Labrador.

But is there any way you can get away from the people who are, you know, surrounding you all the time and have a walk?

Harold Wilson said, Oh yes. Yes.

You can do that, really? Do that daily or nightly?

I wouldn’t have time. And I’d have to have security protection. Because there are a lot of strange people around these days …

I know that, said Bill Shankly. I know that.

Harold Wilson smiled. And Harold Wilson said, But they are good fun. We’ve played golf together, my detectives and I. We go boating together. Long holidays is my answer. I take a long holiday because I never know when I’ll be brought back. Sometimes I’ve been brought back for a week, in the middle of the summer holidays. So I go for three weeks’ holiday, as I get hardly any Saturdays or Sundays off. I go for three weeks’ holiday. If I’m not brought back by a crisis – and I wasn’t this summer – then it’s a long holiday. And I enjoy it.

You go to the Scilly Isles, asked Bill Shankly.

Always. Yes. Walking, walking. Swimming, boating.

Wonderful, wonderful.

A bit of fishing.

But this is the whole thing, said Bill Shankly. If you keep fit, it’s got to be regular.

Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, It should be, it should be. Yes.

It’s got to be a little, often, said Bill Shankly. And the way to eat and keep fit and not put weight on is to eat a little, often.

Harold Wilson nodded. And Harold Wilson said, But there is a bigger thing than this. And that is sleep. I can always sleep. Last week, when I was tired, I slept for ten hours. And nine hours the next day.

Well, I tell you something, Mr Wilson: if you can sleep that well, you’ll have a long life.

And the answer is: never worry. If you worry in the night, you say, If this question can be solved, I’ll do it better at nine o’clock than
three o’clock. I’ve taught a lot of people how to sleep.

This is good, said Bill Shankly. Er, and your dog, is it out of condition? I mean, because some dogs do, if they are lying about?

He gets a little bit of weight. On holiday, he walks. I walk him and he walks me. We both walk hard. And he’s swimming for two or three hours a day. He’s a beautiful swimmer.

Wonderful, wonderful.

And I swim a bit at Chequers. In Mr Heath’s time, some generous people built a swimming bath there. That’s a good way of doing exercise quickly.

Yes, said Bill Shankly. Yes. That’s good for you, too. Not only that – the exercise you get – but the water refreshes you.

Yes, it does. I’m not a good swimmer. I’m a bad swimmer. But I learnt to swim on Merseyside at the Port Sunlight swimming baths, which is where we used to go from Wirral Grammar School.

But the water refreshes you?

Oh, it does. Nothing like seawater. Cold seawater. I like a swimming pool. But in Scilly the water is very cold, very pure and invigorating. And it’s good for me.

Now, said Bill Shankly, we’ve come back to a question that is appertaining to football. What’s England’s chances in the World Cup? Now, first and foremost, of course, they have got to qualify. And I would say to you, really – change that – what chances have they got in the European Nations Cup?