The Collected Works of Chögyam Trungpa Collected Works: Volume Two (54 page)

I think we should close this meeting tonight. We could have a discussion period tomorrow and some sitting practice as well. And we could discuss further what is known as shunyata—what
is
shunyata.

Thank you for coming.

TALK TWO

Ground

I
SUPPOSE WE HAVE TO SEE
the basic principle of shunyata in terms of practice and theory. In terms of theory, all kinds of philosophical speculations about shunyata could be discussed. But in terms of practice, how does a person perceive the shunyata principle in terms of the practical experience of daily living? The sense of shunyata is what we are discussing rather than the philosophy of shunyata. The sense of shunyata—what is it all about? Shunyata simply means emptiness, nothingness. But there is something more than that. When we talk about emptiness, that automatically means the absence of fullness. So we have to get into what is full and what makes it empty.

There are three principles of shunyata: emptiness as ground, emptiness as path, emptiness as fruition. As far as emptiness as ground is concerned, before we begin on the path, there is no beginning. So one doesn’t begin on the path as a solid path, as one imagines, but by realizing and understanding that the basic ground is
so
—without searching particularly or trying to capture the experience of the ground as a starting point.

The starting point itself, the basic ground of shunyata or emptiness, is that one has to know a sense of no beginner. In other words, a complete understanding of egolessness is the starting point. Without that, there is no understanding of shunyata. So you have no solid ground to work with or to walk on. That is to say, you are not going to liberate yourself in order to attain enlightenment. You have to give up the notion of liberation at the beginning—and that also applies to the shunyata principle.

Shunyata, or emptiness, is empty of subject-object relationship. Nonexistent subject, nonexistent object. Perceiver and perceptions do not exist. As far as the groundwork is concerned, there is no definite ground. As long as there is definite ground on the spiritual quest, it becomes a struggle, a deliberate attitude of achievement. And once we begin to be aware of our process of searching as an ambitious struggle, that struggle automatically becomes a formulated struggle—a struggle with ideas, a struggle with theology, concept—which is perpetually creating samsaric mind rather than the spiritual path. The spiritual path becomes religion from that point of view, pejoratively speaking.

So the shunyata experience seems to be that which frees us from religiosity and leads us to true spirituality. Religion in this sense is dogma. You are already a bad person, a condemned person, you contain all kinds of wickedness and you should take those faults and problems seriously. You should try to get into a reformation process, or if you can’t do that, you should take a vow and promise to somebody, “At whatever cost it might take, I won’t do it again. It won’t happen, I can assure you. I promise not to be naughty anymore. From today onward, I’ll be good. I’m ashamed of what I was, but at the same time I am proud of what I might be in the future.” Some kind of primitive positive thinking.

The shunyata principle has an entirely different perspective and feel to the whole thing. We do not think that we are naughty or being bad or that we are condemned. Instead we accept at the same time the destructive qualities in our basic mechanism as well as the positive qualities in our mechanism, so we have no ground to have a battle at all. In other words, the shunyata principle is a clear principle in which at the beginning, as far as the groundwork of shunyata is concerned, no battleground is provided—good fighting evil, evil fighting good, and so forth. It is free of all territories. Both good and bad could coexist. We are acknowledging that process but not regarding it as a defeat—or a promise, for that matter. In other words, dualistic mind has become confused. As soon as dualistic mind exists on the basic ground, it has to fight or to make love, it has to define enemy and friend. It cannot exist without all of those. So the shunyata perspective shows us a new dimension: in order to exist, we don’t have to fight anymore and we don’t have to grasp anymore at all.

It is a very powerful thing that we could
be
by doing nothing. In fact we be by not being. We could be by not being—that is the basic ground of shunyata. Struggle does not play an important part in order to exist. In other words, we could live without breathing. It sounds illogical: we can’t live without breathing, can we? But somehow the definition of existence is that nonexistence could exist; therefore it is existence. Nonexistence could exist; therefore the samsaric process goes on and alogical things could happen; such eccentric ideas as shunyata could exist in the world. Absolutely nonsensical! Doesn’t make any sense. How could I exist without fighting? How could I exist without grasping? Does that mean I should not eat food and I should not defend myself from dangers? One might ask that question. The answer is yes! You don’t have to consume projections in order to exist, and you don’t have to fight projections in order to exist either, metaphorically speaking.

There is a ground process in which we could accommodate everything that goes on without making a big deal out of it—the ground shunyata principle, the absence of hope and fear. We don’t have to strategize further ways of maintaining ourselves or existing ourselves at all. This is negating the existence of that; having negated the existence of that, therefore that automatically negates the existence of this at the same time. The ground shunyata principle. You could say that is the experience of freedom, being ultimately free. We do not have to associate ourselves with good or evil. It is true spirituality, positive thinking: good is good in its own way, unconditioned good; bad is bad in its own way, unconditioned bad; and both could coexist on the basic ground.

That ground shunyata principle starts the inspiration for the practice of meditation. Any formal practice of meditation could be said to be that nondualistic approach, equilibrium in its fullest sense. You provide ground, acknowledge the ground with certain techniques that have been presented to you. The techniques themselves are also expressions of that unbiased approach. They do not express or suggest struggle at all. The techniques are just existing, such as working with breathing, working with walking. Existing, working with existence, is the technique.

So the ground of the shunyata principle is basically uncolored by dogma or by concept. It is not philosophizing the whole thing but actually doing it, being involved in a process that is without dogma. The basic principle of shunyata, of seeing beyond dualistic process, goes on from that. One wonders what else is left with the path and the goal. That whole approach of the groundwork seems to be the path and the goal. But we will discuss them later. It is amazing that we can make something out of nothing!

Questions?

Student:
There’s an experience that people call a shunyata experience—that’s a term—would you use that term yourself?

Vidyadhara:
Yes, somewhat.

S:
Could you please explain how that is related to what you call clear light experience?

V:
I think we are going to go through that in tonight’s talk and tomorrow’s talk.

S:
Maybe I could ask you one more. The shunyata experience has a terrifying quality to it—

V:
Definitely, yes.

S:
—to people who are into their egos. [
Laughter
] As you are getting into that experience, it has a sort of stark, barren feeling to it. If you were prepared to get into that experience, would that feeling instead get into a singing, musical sort of quality? I don’t know if that’s right. In other words, where the familiar boundaries begin to dissolve, if you’re prepared to accept that experience, it sort of goes into a dance or musical quality.

V:
Well, it is obviously a terrifying prospect that you cannot have ground to struggle with, that all the ground is being taken away from you. The carpet is pulled out from under your feet. You are suspended in nowhere—which generally happens anyway, whether we acknowledge it as it actually happens or not. Once we begin to be involved with some understanding, or evolve ourselves toward understanding the meaning of life or of spirituality, we have no further reinforcement—nothing but just being captivated by the fact that something is not quite right, something is missing somewhere.

You have to give in somewhere, somewhat—unless you begin to physically maintain that particular religious trip by successive chantings, pujas, and ritual ceremonies. Or you may try to organize that spiritual scene administratively—answering telephones, writing letters, conducting tours of the community. Then you feel that you are doing something. Otherwise, there is no ground to relate with, none whatsoever—if you are really dealing with the naked body as an individuality, an individual person who is getting into the practice of a spiritual way. Even with a person’s obligations, administrative work, or liturgical job within the spiritual scene, he or she has nothing left on the spiritual way.

You seem to regard your basic existence to be related with spirituality as a definite thing. By maintaining it through primitive language, you feel you have ground. But when the primitive language is removed from your relation to spirituality, you have nothing to relate with anymore at all. Terrifying! You have lost the whole ground. One is thrown back to the practice then, and the practice is very alien, spooky. “Does that mean that I cannot give a tour explaining to people the meaning behind this particular spiritual scene? Does that mean that I cannot conduct ceremonies, services, or perform holy sacraments?” There is the sense that your badges and your uniform have been taken away from you. It is not that this process could take place only if somebody took them away from you officially and formally. But halfway through, you begin to realize that your uniform does not really answer questions and it does not really mean anything as such at all. You are suspended in nowhere. That’s the shunyata experience. No ground to walk on, no ground to work with. You have no function.

From that point of view, the idea of the bodhisattva’s work, compassionate work, also could be regarded as an occupation. If you regard yourself as a professional bodhisattva, suddenly you realize that you can’t be involved with the professionalism of a bodhisattva anymore. So the whole thing is completely wiped out. Your existence has no meaning because you want to be a bodhisattva, but you find that you can’t be a bodhisattva. Your practice of the six paramitas is removed from your face, completely wiped out.

So what to do next—scream? Commit suicide? Attack what? Rage war? Once you begin to wage war against something, you know that the war will end one day. So that doesn’t seem to be a permanent, secure occupation either. [
Laughter
] Somebody has to win or lose. Particularly if you don’t want to win, you win. So the whole process is very scary. You could say that it is a dance, if you like. I’m afraid it is not a particularly musical one. [
Laughter
]

Student:
What is the relation of wanting to the ground, wanting in itself—not wanting any particular thing, but just wanting. You say that I don’t have to fight, but I want to fight,
want
. And this obscures the ground. The wanting goes on, wanting in itself.

Vidyadhara:
Well, the whole point is that if you want, that means that you are afraid of being without an occupation. You want something because you haven’t got it.

S:
I want!

V:
Because you haven’t got it.

S:
I have wanted! I want!

V:
Yes, but you can’t want unless you don’t have it.

S:
Unless I don’t have wanting.

V:
Unless you don’t have whatever you want, and therefore you want. That means you are standing on nothingness. Do you see what I mean? For instance, what if you say that I want to go to the moon?

S:
I don’t want any specific thing, I just want. I have wanting.

V:
Well, that’s the whole thing.

S:
That attaches itself, the wanting attaches itself.

V:
It means basically you haven’t got it.

S:
Right. Now, I don’t want to want shunyata, because I won’t have it if I want it. And I don’t want the ground, because if I want it, I won’t have the ground. I’m asking, how can I get rid of wanting without
wanting
to get rid of wanting?

V:
Well, I suppose the whole point is that you have to acknowledge your double poverty. You are poor and you realize that because you are poor therefore you are poor. Because there is space, therefore you know there is space.
Realizing
space is another matter. But the realizer also realizes there is no space and there is also space. It is threatening, extremely threatening. In other words, you see something, but you are not really seeing. From this point of view, the shunyata principle is extraordinary. It sounds demonic or negative, extraordinarily negative. Unless we acknowledge that negativity of poverty and loss of ground, we cannot relate to the shunyata principle.

S:
The problem is that wanting is incorporated into the emotional system. It’s almost automatic. It’s in the emotions! And it doesn’t go away because I see all this.

V:
No, but if you see that it is hopeless, then you don’t try to strategize anymore. You give up the whole trip. It’s not a question of realizing that you could stop wanting, which means you are still hanging on to something. You see what I mean?

S:
Yeah, but the habit system is also built in there, the habit around the wanting. So if we let some stimulus appear, any kind, that emotion and habit will go right to work in the moment, right? So this is the problem, to dissolve that.