The Collected Works of Chögyam Trungpa: Volume 6 (28 page)

Trungpa Rinpoche:
Generally, we are preoccupied all the time. When that wall of preoccupation is removed, for the first time we begin to appreciate colors: visual situations, which could become the inspiration for symbolism, as well as psychological and emotional colors. But that doesn’t mean you are going to see beehive mandalas, or that your bright carpet is going to turn into herukas.

Student:
Could you speak more clearly about infiltration and other tactics?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
I think it involves a certain kind of acceptance at the beginning, so that you could enter into a situation. Having entered into a situation, then you could work with the heart of that situation. I don’t see using any other tactic apart from infiltration. The other tactic would have to be an attack, an external attack or invasion—which is like trying to throw out the whole wall by force. In that case, there is the possibility that you might get hurt; whereas if you decide to work brick by brick, you will never get hurt, but you will be able to destroy the whole wall. Infiltration begins by working on the sensitive areas which are not guarded by the meshwork of materialistic forces. It is like trying to infiltrate at the time when the changing of the guards is taking place: at that point you have a chance to go in. It is trying to see the gaps, the unguarded situations where you can infiltrate through.

S:
So it is not only a matter of demolition, as it were, but a transformation of the situation you find yourself in?

TR:
Yes, yes, this is so. Another analogy has been used in Chinese philosophy, as well as by Mao Tse-tung. He said that if you are trying to invade a country, you don’t attack the capital to start with. Instead, you first try to work your way into the countryside, make friends with the peasants, and occupy the rural areas. Then finally the capital becomes just a little island, an insignificant thing.

Student:
Isn’t infiltration a dangerous idea? Doesn’t it imply that we have the concept that we have something that’s better than what is, so we’re going to change it?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
That depends on your understanding. Take the example of the local situation. In order to teach meditation or nonviolence to America, first you have to become a complete American, you have to become a super-American. Then you’ll be able to speak their language as well as what you’re trying to say. So a certain giving is necessary as well as attacking or changing, because change cannot take place if you don’t know what you’re going to change. In that sense, I don’t think it is going to be dangerous.

S:
It just seems like it would be dangerous to develop into some kind of crusader.

TR:
Of course. It would be dangerous in that case—if you became evangelistic, carried away, with a sword in one hand and a Bible in the other.

Student:
Isn’t there a conflict in becoming American? On the one hand, as students of meditation we lean toward a kind of pure life. For instance, maybe we’ll want to get up early in the morning, or maybe we’ll want to eat a simple diet. On the other hand, Americans watch TV and they go window-shopping and do other sorts of things. Isn’t there a danger in leading the pure life, and isn’t there also a danger in watching too much TV?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
Well, you see, that’s precisely the point I’m trying to raise. I’m glad you raised that question. If you lead a complete American middle-class life—watch television, football, go into business—then you begin to see the foolishness of that; and if you live in a simple place and are trying to do the hippie trip, equally there is something lacking there as well. The point is to see both perspective views as they are and then to penetrate through it. At the same time, you don’t get hurt by watching television, going to parties, and having polite conversation with people. That doesn’t overwhelm you, because you already know what is happening; whereas generally you don’t know what’s happening, you just go along.

Student:
Would you say that practicing meditation would be like the bridge or ladder joining together the bottom and the top?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
Meditation practice is like getting into no-man’s-land. It is the act of doing absolutely nothing, which provides the right perspective, or view, of the ultimate meditation experience. Because of such understanding, the postmeditation experience also becomes broader and more open, because you have that vision. It is working with duality in some sense, the two extremes. Both extremes are being seen as they are by going into it.

Student:
While you’re still around, can I maybe buy you a beer?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
Go ahead.

Student:
Rinpoche, I really didn’t understand what you said about alcohol, when you compared getting high off earth and getting high off space. Can you be clearer about that?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
There are actual deliberate differences between being high on drugs and high on alcohol. Being high on drugs is very much a dream world—that is why a lot of people find it difficult to reconcile themselves when they come out of it. You might get a hangover from alcohol, of course, but alcohol intoxication is being high on earth: people cry, people fight, such earthy situations happen. It is based directly on living. But what I’m trying to say is that any kind of extreme or any attempt at replacement or escape doesn’t seem to be right.

S:
So there could be danger in getting high on alcohol as well?

TR:
Yes. It might lead to being high on space.

S:
That’s what I didn’t follow before. How would being high on earth be any different from being high on space?

TR:
Because all sorts of concepts begin to develop. Being high on earth could lead to being high on space at the same time—based on such conceptualizing. But that doesn’t mean one should always be guarded and keeping a happy medium. Everybody says, “Moderation in everything,” which is a well-known phrase, jargon. But somehow that doesn’t work either. It should be experiential, personal.

Student:
Rinpoche, how does the idea of its being a lonely journey relate to the possibility of going into it with your family, making the journey as more than one?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
There will be hundreds of people making the same journey. It doesn’t have to be purely your family. Hundreds of people here in this gathering are making a similar journey. At the same time, the whole idea is that you cannot actually relate one hundred percent of your own experiences to anybody; you cannot relate everything to anybody completely. The ways we have of relating are words and situations, and words and situations are very inadequate, clumsy ways of communicating. Ultimately there’s only one way—being alone. You might take your family and friends along into the same situations, but that doesn’t mean you are sharing absolutely every moment of those situations with them. So in any case there is no alternative.

Student:
Do you have any comments on such activities as painting, writing, music, and theater—those kinds of things?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
They are the expression of man’s inspiration, including landing on the moon—which is beautiful. It is the result of being brave enough to experiment, brave enough to go along with the truth of nature as it is, and accomplishing it. That’s the dignity of man, or whatever jargon we’d like to use. It’s beautiful. You see, the point is that once you begin to put these—painting, music, scientific experiments, whatever it may be—into practice, at the beginning it is deliberate effort but in the end you transcend deliberateness. Your work becomes a masterpiece. An accomplished artist wouldn’t think of how his audience is going to be impressed; he just does it. It is the same thing with scientific experiments: a master scientist wouldn’t hesitate; he or she is continuously going more and more into the depths of reality, of things as they are.

Student:
A moment ago when we were talking about infiltrating America, someone said, “I do this, but Americans watch TV,” as though Americans were somebody else. I think if we have any ideas about doing something for America, we have to remember, like it or not, that America is us. In a sense we don’t have to infiltrate America—we’re already in it.

Trungpa Rinpoche:
That’s true, yes. Infiltrating is already taking place and actually taking effect. Good for you.

S:
Is that infiltration at the political or sociological level, or can it take place within each individual, infiltrating one’s square side and one’s hippie side—becoming friends with those and realizing the foolishness of both extremes?

TR:
It works both ways. Usually the reason we are here is because we want to learn something. We ask questions all the time at the beginning. Then we begin to realize that infiltration is taking place already. That is a kind of acknowledgment, a confirmation that it has happened already, rather than that we have to work on a tactic of any kind.

Infiltration works inwardly as well as outwardly. It is the same analogy as how to stop the war. War is aggression, an act of aggression; so the only way to stop the war is not to make a nuisance of ourselves to ourselves. We start by dealing with the closest aggression that there is; that is the starting point of trying to stop the war. I know that most idealistic peace marchers and nonviolence groups, who are involved with actual problems, wouldn’t agree with that—it would seem to be too timid and cowardly. Because of that, they begin to create another kind of war. In fact, people actually believe that if they start one kind of aggression in order to stop another aggression, that is absolutely justifiable aggression. But as far as aggression goes, there is no justifiable aggression at all. By fighting aggression with aggression, you’re adding to the complications and confusions of both the country and the individuals.

Student:
In a previous talk you mentioned the concept of sane violence and insane violence. Is that sane violence related at all to the so-called aggressiveness of the peace marchers? What is the difference between sane violence and what the peace marchers are doing?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
It seems that what they are doing is insane violence, the confusion of violence. They are not able to learn judo; instead they take part in an ordinary fistfight game, based on not having enough understanding of the nature of violence. I mean, one obvious way of defeating somebody is to kick back. But then there is a continual chain reaction set up—which I would say is insane, because the whole thing is based on defeat and victory constantly. Actual sane violence transcends both defeat and victory at the same time. It is like the analogy of the Buddha being attacked by the maras: each spearhead or arrow thrown at him became a flower.

S:
I think that for me the peace marches were one of the first steps I made in looking at my society. I suppose that has a lot to do with me being here now.

TR:
It serves a purpose, of course. Anything you will do serves a purpose. If you commit suicide, that will make someone stop and think, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that that is the way, the only way. What we are talking about is that we actually don’t want to hurt others. Once you begin to do something, there is going to be a natural chain reaction: your love or hate is going to reach somebody else and they’re going to be subject to that as well as you.

S:
Do you think they actually hurt others then, the marchers?

TR:
Well, they built up all sorts of animosity.

Student:
They seem to be very self-righteous.

Trungpa Rinpoche:
That’s the whole point. You develop a philosophy of your own at the beginning, which may be good, based on Mahatma Gandhi’s idea of nonviolence and so on. But then you have to hold on to that: you have regular prefabricated answers to every question, and you don’t think for yourself at all. You just churn them out because it is already worked out, it is already planned. That’s the problem with any kind of dogma: that prefabricated quality becomes lifeless, without any personality.

Student:
In talking about the path of the bodhisattva, you say you destroy what needs to be destroyed. What do you mean by this?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
That is the precise, clear vision of compassion that sees the situation clearly, obviously, as it is. Whenever you have to play the role of tough, you play it. Whenever you need to play the role of gentleness, you do it. You see, there is a tremendous difference between blind compassion and skillful compassion.

Student:
Why are you here rather than in a cave?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
This is a cave. In fact, twenty-four hours a day I work in a cave.

Student:
Will you speak about the family and its importance on the path?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
Well, each relationship is energy. The concept of sangha, for instance, means a group of people working together as brothers and sisters, working together as spiritual friends to one another. That is an important point. In order to be brothers and sisters, you have to be open to each other as well. Being open is not being dependent on others, which blocks
their
openness. In other words, the sangha does not create a situation of claustrophobia for each person in it. If somebody falls, you still stand independently; because you are not leaning on the other person, you don’t fall. When one person falls it doesn’t create a chain reaction of other people falling as well. So independence is equally important as being together, acting as an inspiration to one another.

S:
Should you let people pick themselves up if they fall? It seems if you try to help, sometimes that can be a reflection of your own ego. I think that for myself, it is better for me to pick myself up. If somebody tries to help, unless it’s done just right, it’s wrong.