The Michael Jackson Tapes (21 page)

Shmuley Boteach: What about celebrity? What about the negative things associated with celebrity? What are the negatives of celebrity? What do you dislike about being as famous as you are?

Michael Jackson: I dislike when you become an icon, being a celebrity and then becoming an icon, an international phenomenon which has happened to me—and I am not ashamed to say it—and the jealousy that is involved. I have seen some serious jealousy.

SB: Do you feel it around some other celebrities, and it is palpable, or do you feel it from a distance?

MJ: I have seen it but once they meet me face to face they always, always change. They see I am nothing like that guy. I have had people really start to cry in front of me after meeting me. There have been fans, and there are two kinds of fans. There is the fan who goes, “Oh my God! Oh my God! Oh my God!” And they faint and you have to hold them. Then there's the other fan, who say an abrupt, “Hi.” I go “Hi, nice to meet you. What's your name?” They give you their name, but they have got an attitude. I am just as simple and warm with them and then I see them start to cry. I say, “Why are you crying?” And they say, “Because I didn't think you would be this nice.” And they go away a different person. I go,

“Well, what did you think I was like?” and they'd go, “I thought you would be stuck up and arrogant.” I say, “Please never judge a person. I am nothing like that.” They have been so impressed. I'm sure they go away loving you tenfold, a thousand times more. Nothing beats kindness and love I think. Just simplicity.

SB: Have you always been able to melt a hard heart with kindness and love?

MJ: Yes.

SB: What about jealousy from other stars. Is there a lot of jealousy in your profession?

MJ: Absolutely. They admire you and know you are wonderful and great because they are jealous, because they wish they were in your shoes. And “M” is one of them. Madonna is one of them. She is jealous. She is a girl, a woman and I think that's what bothers her. I think women don't scream for other women. Men are too cool to scream for women. I get the fainting and adulation and she doesn't.

SB: Does jealousy have no role? Were you never jealous of someone in your career who made you work harder?

MJ: Never jealous. Admiration, complete admiration.

SB: So admiration can bring even greater goals than jealousy because it is positive and not negative. So you would look at Fred Astaire and say, “I want to be able to do that.”

MJ: Yes, absolutely. Complete inspiration, never jealousy. It's wrong, but people are like that aren't they? It's true? Can't people look at somebody great and get totally jealous of them?

SB: Sure, but you have never felt that?

MJ: I don't understand a person who could do that.

SB: For you it has always been inspiration? You have been in awe and wonder of those with great talent?

MJ: Can a person become jealous of God?

SB: Sure. Look at Stalin and Hitler. They tried to be God. They wanted to decide life and death.

MJ: Wow.

SB: Because they lose the sense of awe and wonder. God doesn't impress them. He threatens them. They want to be all-powerful, so they can't submit to God's authority. They become enemies of God. [Aside from jealousy] what other things do you dislike about celebrity?

MJ: Being famous.

SB: Do you dislike when you can't walk down the street?

MJ: No, I enjoy when people recognize me and they are nice and say, “Hi,” and there is a crowd or something.

SB: When I was with you in that van, and we had left your hotel, Michael, twice we saw a young black kid on a bicycle follow us for about four to five miles on the most treacherous streets in New York City, just to get your autograph. And you stopped the car and made sure he got his autograph. We saw three other kids who, after the dinner with President Clinton, chased us for about a mile on foot until you said to the driver, “Stop.” And you gave them your autograph. So you see people do that?

MJ: Oh God, Shmuley, hundreds of them sometimes. It is a trillion times worse than what you have seen. They start breaking things and it turns into a mob scene.

SB: Do you enjoy when people recognize you as long as they are nice?

MJ: I think our job as celebrities, I think anybody who has been blessed by God with any sort of talent—be it the sculptor, the writer, the painter, the singer of songs, to the dancer—is to bring some sense of escapism and enjoyment to the masses of people. That's our job, to bring joy.

SB: Anything else you hate about celebrity? Obviously, you hate the tabloid stories as well?

MJ: Hate them. I hate the jerks for doing that sort of thing. I think racism, jealousy, and just hate—evil—are part of it. They vent out their frustration on people who are trying to do good and it is just sad. If anyone believes it, they are like crazy. I mean I wish there was a way to totally get rid of those kinds of things.

Shmuley Boteach: I see how people will do anything to have a piece of you. They want to ride your coattails to fame. They want to be seen with you, photographed with you. But there are people who have gotten close to you who have harmed you, who have hurt you, who have sued you. Have you got any stories where they come to you and say, “I am really sorry, I used you. I am really sorry?” Do you have any stories about forgiveness?

Michael Jackson: I wish. I wish people were that sweet to admit to their own wrongdoing.

SB: Not one. Never? No one ever came to you and said, “Sorry Michael, but at that party the other night I claimed to know you better that I really did. I used your name to get ahead”? Have you heard stories like that, where someone has said, “Oh yes I spoke to this guy. He says he knows you so well. He says he's your best friend. And you have never even heard of the guy?”

MJ: I have that all the time. Sometimes not to break their heart I agree like I know who they are talking about, because I don't want to embarrass the person.

SB: So you'll say, “Yeah, yeah. I know who you are talking about?” MJ: [When really I am thinking is] I don't know who the heck you are talking about.

SB: No one who has ever hurt you has come and asked for forgiveness? There wasn't a reporter who ever came and said, “I wrote this stuff. I am sorry”? I said to the journalist from that newspaper, “How could you write that President Clinton [at the Angel Ball] was publicly distancing himself from Michael when he mentioned him three times in his speech?” I repeated the speech references to him and he actually said, “I'm sorry, I was given the wrong information.” He was a decent guy. He said, “I will correct it tomorrow.” But have you never had to forgive anyone in your life, Michael? Have you ever forgiven anyone without them asking? Have you forgiven the people who have hurt you?

MJ: To their face?

SB: In your heart.

MJ: Of course.

SB: You have seen someone being mean and you have forgiven them anyway.

MJ: Yes, because I was taught to be Biblical: “Forgive them for they know not what they do.” And you do it.

SB: Do you think you are a better person for it?

MJ: Yeah.

SB: So you have no anger in your heart at anyone today?

MJ: I have anger for the press. I am very bitter, mad and angry with them and I am angry at those who deliberately inflict pain upon a child to hurt them. The stories about what they are doing in the
wars to the kids. I always try and figure out a way to try and do something about that.

SB: What about forgiveness? There are people who have hurt you. Children do fight, but they don't bear grudges. Can you forgive people with your whole heart, people who have hurt you?

MJ: Yes.

SB: Even I didn't realize this. But when I mentioned Roseanne Barr to you, because I do her television show often as a guest, I later saw that she had made a negative comment about you for no apparent reason.

MJ: She has been mean with me. That was why I was hesitant.

SB: You could tell me that.

MJ: I didn't maliciously attack her.

SB: I saw that. Can you forgive them? There is no malice in their heart.

MJ: You know, “They know not what they do.” Words of Jesus. They don't even know me. It has no foundation what they are doing. How can they say it. . . they don't even know me? Do you believe something you have read?

SB: So it is total forgiveness?

MJ: Yes, because Roseanne came to me later on, like a puppy backstage, praising, feeling bad about all of that.

SB: Have you got other examples?

MJ: Madonna has never apologized. She is jealous.

SB: She wants to be the biggest star in the world?

MJ: Yes, she is jealous.

SB: You can't understand that. You would say, “What are you jealous for? You do your thing. I do my thing. . . .”

MJ: But at the same time she will come to my concert and cry. She comes there and tears rolling down her face for the song and the presentation of the song. There are some good qualities in her.

SB: There are good qualities in her. But you're saying she allows her jealousy to mask them at times. But if someone does that, they don't even have to ask for forgiveness because you will just forgive them?

MJ: Yes.

 

SB: I saw that you made an overture to Jay Leno. You went to a charity benefit with Elizabeth Taylor and you were wearing a red suit. MJ: Brown suit.

SB: So you saw Jay Leno and. . . ?

MJ: He was sitting at my table with President Ford, Sylvester Stallone, Elizabeth Taylor, Sydney Poitier. When he came to sit down I just walked over to him and started like playfully choking him [because he always makes negative jokes about Michael] and he was like, “Urgghh. Urrrggghh.” And then Elizabeth said, “Have you been saying mean things about Michael?” And he went, “Huh?” Later on in the evening he shook my hand with a warm expression in his eyes and the next day he sends a letter to the office saying, “Michael said he would come on the show. Can you set it up so that we can have him on the show?” I never said that. So I don't know how to take it from here. But instead of taking him to one side and saying something nasty back to him, I wouldn't do that. I couldn't help doing what I did to him [Laughs].

SB: That's cute. Everyone saw?

MJ: Yeah, they saw it. He has a big neck too. I couldn't get my hands round.

SB: What is it about Elizabeth Taylor that is so endearing to you? She is like your closest friend for many years. What is it about her, in the context of these childlike qualities?

MJ: We are both from the same place. . . .

SB: She's loyal, right.

MJ: She's loyal. We are from the same place. She can relate to the world I have come from. She's curious. You just look in her eyes and you know. It is like speaking telepathically. You can feel it, it's true, without saying a word and I felt that seeing her the very first time. It's like that with Shirley Temple [Black]. We are from the same world.

Shmuley Boteach: Let me ask you this. Given that you were somewhat disadvantaged as a child, not being given the love that you needed, how do you overcome what you weren't given? How did you learn to make up for the basic tools that you were deprived of?

Michael Jackson: I think music and dance helped me a lot, like therapy. To be able to express your feelings through songs and your emotions on stage and getting all that love back a thousandfold through the fans.

SB: That compensated for what you didn't get?

MJ: Yeah, 'cause when a fan walks up, I mean honestly when somebody walks up to you and says, “I love you so much,” it makes my heart feel so good. I could never get tired of it.

SB: Really? Do you not sometimes feel that a sicko fan, a stalker, takes it too far?

MJ: No, nope. I just love it. I just love my fans. I love them to pieces and what makes my heart happy is when I see they support my beliefs about family and children. They have these big billboards of children and babies and they're with me, they get it, you know? They get what I'm saying.

SB: So what you didn't get from your parents you get from your fans, but there's one big difference. Parents are supposed to give you unconditional love, even if you don't deserve it. Bill Clinton's mother, Virginia Kelly, was once asked which son she loved more. Bill, who made her real proud as president of the United

States, or Roger, who had drug issues and was accused of being a deadbeat dad.

MJ: One of her kids?

SB: Roger, Bill Clinton's brother.

MJ: Has a drug addiction?

SB: Sure, I'm almost positive he was in prison for selling drugs. MJ: Really?

SB: And he was a deadbeat dad, didn't pay alimony and stuff like that. And she was asked, “One son is kind of a bum and the other is president, do you love Bill more?” And she said, “What? Are you crazy? I love both my children, I love them equally.” So there's got to be a difference, Michael, between how the fans love you, and how your family does. Parents love you unconditionally, but the fans love you because you can sing and because you can dance, or do you feel unconditional love from your fans?

MJ: That's hard, 'cause I'm not in their skin. Umm, I think after discovering who I am and how I see them and make them feel good about themselves, they love me unconditionally. I know they do. . . I feel it, I see it. You go with me sometime and we go out and you're gonna run into the diehard fans, you're going to see something. It's unbelievable, it's like a religious experience. They sleep on the street, hold up candlelight and they have their families out there, it's just so beautiful. I love seeing the children come, that makes my heart so happy.

SB: So it's the case of originally they loved you because of song and dance, but then they went beyond that point.

MJ: Yeah, they discovered what I'm about, what I'm trying to say. . . There's a message in the music that's more than just a beat and a rhythm. There's some real depth.

SB: Why do you have such fanatical fans? Can I tell you how fanatical they are? I haven't even shown you, but that one article I published about you, after Neverland and your birthday, has generated so many hundreds of letters by email to us. You've got to see it. Half of these people run their own Michael Jackson website. There's something like hundreds upon hundreds of Michael Jackson websites.

MJ: Yeah, yeah.

SB: How do you account for that? I mean everyone has fans. It's like when we talked about the Spice Girls the other day. Sure they had fans, but where are the fans now? Why are yours such diehard fans?

MJ: I think 'cause they, I've been given the gift that God has given me and I haven't been a “here today gone tomorrow” artist and it allows people, the public, to grow up with me. When they grow with me it's more an emotional contact and they feel attached to me like I'm their brother. I have people walk up to me [and say] “Michael!” start talking, grabbing me just like they're my brother or sister. I play as if, you know, you've got to go along with it. They really feel that you belong to them.

SB: You've known them for their entire life?

MJ: Yeah, all my life and I have to go right along with it. 'Cause I'm on their wall, they hear me every morning, and pictures are everywhere. It is like a shrine and some religions say it's idol worship but I don't believe it's idol worship.

SB: Okay, why isn't it idol worship?

MJ: I have never written once, nor have I heard, [the fans claiming that I'm a god.] Perhaps there were some banners that say, “You are God.” We do have footage like that but we don't show it on television. We have banners that say that. I don't think it's anything bad 'cause what I'm talking about is love, let's restore the family. . .