The Michael Jackson Tapes (23 page)

Shmuley Boteach: How did you feel when Michael began to feel distanced from the Jehovah's Witnesses?

Katherine Jackson: I felt really bad because it bothered me so much. I cried about it, I prayed about it. And I really felt bad about when he disfellowshipped himself from the religion. They didn't disfellowship him. And he thought that would be better because he thought that he would be doing things and. . .

SB: But what was their exact objection? That he was a pop star and didn't fit in anymore?

KJ: He would've fit in. But I guess, I really don't know why he decided to disfellowship himself.

SB: He disfellowshipped himself.

KJ: Right.

SB: Up until that time he was still going with you to church on Sundays?

KJ: Yes.

SB: So he disfellowshipped himself and did he discuss it with you before he did that?

KJ: No. I heard that later. No, that's what hurt so bad. Not that he was. . . I just didn't want to see him disfellowship himself from the religion.

SB: He felt that would give him greater artistic freedom, probably. KJ: Probably so.

SB: Like with “Thriller” he had to do that thing at the beginning.

KJ: Aha.

SB: Did you call him and say, you know, you should think about this?

KJ: No. No, I didn't because he disfellowshipped himself before I knew it and it was too late then.

SB: But do you still feel that he. . . It seems to me that he still has a very spiritual core, I mean like he talks about God with me all the time.

KJ: Yes, yes. He really is. And I wish he would come back.

SB: Do you talk to him about raising Prince and Paris with some of the spiritual tradition?

KJ: Well, I bring the literature to Grace [the children's nanny].

SB: Right.

KJ: And I bring the little. . . we have a book of Bible stories for children and I brought both of them one and she has them and she
reads it to them. And I don't think he has anything against her teaching them or reading to them.

SB: Right. As Michael became more famous, did you see any changes at all, away from the. . .

KJ: The religion?

SB: Yeah.

KJ: No, I didn't see anything against. . . No, I didn't. The only thing he was doing was the way he was dancing at the time when he did “Billie Jean
.”
They always said the way he had. . . he was grabbing his crotch, and things like that.

SB: Right, well he always jokes with me about that. He laughs at it.

KJ: I know [laughing].

Shmuley Boteach: Okay. Did you feel extra protective over him because he was very soft? Did you feel the need to look after him more?

Katherine Jackson: Yes. He was pretty strong in the way of taking care of himself in so many ways but I guess that's what made me feel close to him because I feel that he's soft. Like, when they were talking about him like with the child molestation thing and everybody was telling me. “Don't say anything, you're gonna make it worse.” And Michael's office would say, “Don't say anything. You're gonna make it worse.” And I said, “It can't get any worse than what it is. I don't care what you say, I'm going on television.” And I did, because he needed someone to help him, to protect him from this stuff. Not that I could protect him, but at least I could try to set matters straight. Even though they didn't believe me, I had spoken. But they all came out for money. They knew they were
lying, and I went on television again and I said, “These people work for me, not for Michael.” People try to make money any kind of way they can.

SB: And when he was younger, did you also feel the need to protect him? Did you immediately see that of all your nine children that he was softer than the others, that he was more sensitive than the others, that he was gentler than the others?

KJ: You know, I see him more sensitive than the others but. . . I think he's kind of strong when you have to be. Don't you see that? Or do you?

SB: Oh, absolutely, I saw it yesterday. I told you. Michael and Frank had this whole clash about how much he should do tomorrow night at Carnegie Hall. Absolutely, yeah, he is very strong when he has to be.

KJ: Aha, that's how he is.

SB: So you saw that as well. You saw there was a softness, but a strong core.

KJ: A softness, but strong too in a way. And he can be hurt very easily, you know, because people think a certain way or say certain things about him. But I think he's kind of hard now because he's had so many things thrown upon him.

SB: Absolutely.

KJ: He's got a hard shell.

SB: He had to endure a lot. Absolutely. When he chose to stay at home. . . he was now big, even after
Thriller
, he was now one of the biggest stars in the world.

KJ: Aha.

SB: Can you talk about that? About that at all? Did you. . . I mean,

I find that very moving that in this day and age when people go to college at like seventeen and they're not close to their parents anymore. . . And here was this guy who could obviously afford to live anywhere he wanted. But he wanted to live at home. Um, so we were just talking about Michael staying at home. As your children. . . your children got married young, most of them, I mean the older boys.

KJ: Yes they did.

SB: Michael didn't.

KJ: No.

SB: And were you happy to have him at home?

KJ: Yes. In fact, I didn't want to see any of my children leave home, but that's how mothers are.

SB: Right.

KJ: You know, but they have to leave and go away.

SB: Well did you say to him, “That's good that you're staying home. You're right, this is the correct decision. Stay here until you get married”?

KJ: No.

SB: Or did you say to him “You're a superstar, you really should be. . . ”

KJ: No, no. I never believed in pushing children out or you know, like the mother bird. . . you know, push them out and say fly? But I did believe in them being strong and being able to go, but whenever they got ready. . . twenty-four. . . twenty-five.

SB: He always felt very protective about you?

KJ: He said, “I'm gonna buy you a house.”

Shmuley Boteach: There are a lot of stories he tells me about when he was a boy, about you. Like for example, he said that he always used to dance. . .

Katherine Jackson: Aha.

SB: And he would leave scuff marks.

KJ: Mhmm [laughing].

SB: And everyone would say, “Michael stop dancing.” Or, “You're making too much noise.” And you used to always say, “No, let him dance.”

KJ: Yes.

SB: He sort of credits you with bringing out his musical talent more than anyone else because you. . .

KJ: Oh, really?

SB: Yeah, he always tells me. One of the stories that we have in the book is that he always used to dance and leave marks and be making noise and you would always say, “No, let Michael dance. Always let Michael dance.”

KJ: Yes.

SB: Do you remember that?

KJ: Yes, yes. I think Michael was born with it because even when he was a little kid, three years old, and the kids used to sing and he would be. . . that's what made me notice that he was a singer. He was over in the corner, and they were singing and perfect harmony came from him and I thought, “My God where did he get this from?” And then when he was about five years old, they would be wondering, “Now what move can we put with [this song]?” You know how they do the choreography. And he was doing that. He would tell them, “No, let's do this and let's do that.”

SB: Almost like he had it inside him?

KJ: He did. He had it inside him. I don't know where it came from and it startled me. Just like some things you see in Prince now and you just don't believe it. And that's how it was with him.

 

SB: There was something just last week saying that Michael's chin was surgically implanted, and that's how ridiculous it gets. How do you feel about all that stuff as his mother?

KJ: People saying things about him?

SB: When you read this stuff. . . anything. . .

KJ: Oh it upsets me. It makes me angry.

SB: But do you also say to yourself at that time “I believe in God and I believe that everything is done for a reason?” Do you find strength in your spiritual faith that ultimately none of this will matter, that God's will will be done?

KJ: I do feel that way. If it wasn't for my faith, my spirit and my belief in God, I don't think I could've made it with all the stuff that goes on about my family and about Michael. It really hurts. But you have to pray about it. That's the only way that you can. . . SB: So that's what's gotten you through it?

KJ: Yes.

SB: And did you say to Michael in 1993 or in any of those times, “You have to be close to God. You need that faith. This is what's gonna get you through it”? That it's not the money or the success or the fans. That it's a strong relationship with God?

KJ: Right, right, it is. And I feel that and I feel that. Uh [sigh], well, I can't say it.

SB: Well, for most people, as they become more successful, they become less religious. It's a trend. With you it seems that the more successful the family became, you became more religious. You held on tighter.

KJ: Aha. Yes. There's nothing else out there to me. I'm proud of my children, proud of what they're doing, and they have a talent for it. But as far as anything else out there in the world, there's nothing. Because Satan is. . . and you might not believe me. . .

SB: Oh, please speak openly. . .

KJ: Mhmm.

SB: There are things in my faith that you wouldn't agree with. [Both laugh.]

SB: But we're both people of faith.

KJ: Well, I believe that Satan is the god of the system. The reason I say that is because. . . all the news you hear, bad news. . . all the people are doing crazy things. And the Bible speaks of children, these last days, of children how they are disrespectful, lovers of money rather than lovers of God and, how children are disrespectful to their parents and parents are disrespectful to their children. And that's what's happening. Don't you think so?

SB: Absolutely. Well, that's why you should come tomorrow night [to the joint lecture Michael and I were going to deliver at Carnegie Hall]. It's going to be a big blow against the side of Satan. You should really come. I couldn't agree more. What drew me to Michael, and you should see the speech he's giving tomorrow, is how he speaks so movingly about how nobody eats dinner with their kids anymore and how no one reads their children bedtime stories. And every time there would be a shooting in the schools, he'd call me up at home when he was in California and I was in
New Jersey. And he'd say, “Did you hear? Another kid got shot.” Now in America, it's “Oh, another kid got shot.” And you'd turn the page to another story. But Michael cried.

KJ: Mhmm, mhmm. That's Michael.

SB: On my birthday, we brought the national leukemia poster child. Michael came to my birthday party and she sat next to him, this little girl seven years old. And when the mother told him her story, Michael cried like a little baby. It was unbelievable. Do you do that as well?

KJ: Yes, I do.

SB: So he really is most like you. I mean, if I want to understand him, I have to understand you.

KJ: Aha, mhmm. And I hate that about myself and Janet does it too. [Laughing]

SB: Michael told me about you—you can't say no to anybody. People will ask you for things and you can't say no. [Laughing]

KJ: Mhmm, it's hard. And he's the same way and I told him you have to learn to say no.

SB: Now does that come from your parents? Were they very kind people?

KJ: Mhmm, yes. Especially my mother. My father was too.

SB: So you transmitted this tradition of kindness to your children. Kindness was the most important thing.

KJ: That's how I felt. Sometimes when you're poor and you have nothing else to give, give your love, give of yourself. And whatever you had, like poor people always do. When I was raised up, they would always invite people in to eat, that's all they had, you know.

SB: Are you treated differently in the church as the mother of the Jacksons?

KJ: Oh no, no, no, no, no, no.

SB: And do you like the fact that you can just be yourself there?

KJ: Yes. I like that fact. I could be myself. And we have the girl that's in our congregation too that always sits next to me and my friend and all the time who was on tour with Diana Ross. And uh
she's. . . [pause in tape] her name is Linda Lawrence and you know they had to quit their tour but she went on tour with Diana, took Mary's place. And she's been traveling as a Supreme. You know, they have a lot before Diana and she's treated the same way. And my daughter's in the congregation, and she's treated the same way.

SB: Which one? Rebbie?

KJ: Rebbie.

SB: She lives also. . . she lives near you?

KJ: She used to. She lives in Las Vegas.

SB: I want to ask this question as well. . . I can turn this off, or not. But Michael has had a tortured, he's had a tortured relationship with his father. I'm not saying anything new. I mean, this has come out, as you know, in interviews and things like that.

KJ: Aha.

SB: You probably know that there's uh. . . I don't know how much he spoke about his father in public but one of the famous things that he said publicly was that once his father walked into the room, he felt like throwing up 'cause he was so afraid of him. Do you remember that?

KJ: I know! Yeah, I remember him saying that. He used to tell me and when I used to go on the road he always said, “Don't bring Joseph.” I'd say, “Why?” and he said, “I literally. . . ”

SB: I could turn this off if you want me to.

KJ: Yes. Could you, please?

SB: Of course.