The Nuremberg Interviews (69 page)

Who is responsible for these crimes? “The Führer and Himmler.”

Father:
Died of old age, in 1943, at the age of eighty-four. A farmer.

Mother:
Age seventy-two, in good health.

“My father was a very emotional, frank, and honest man. Politically he belonged to the German People’s Party — a liberal.” Was he anti-Semitic? “No.” Do you think your father would have carried out these orders? “I don’t know.” Was he a strong character? “Yes.” Do you think you have a strong character? “Yes.” Then you must really hate Jews. “No. We grew up under strict discipline and were used to carrying out orders. My human emotions were the same as those of the others.”

How did you get along with your father? “For many years, we didn’t get along well. But in the last few years, good. My political activities as a youth were in conflict with my father’s ideas.”

What sort of personality is your mother? “She is a good housewife and straightforward.” Whom do you resemble most, from a personality standpoint? “My father.” In what way? “Scientific inclinations. I wanted to become a teacher of philosophy, sociology, and national economy.” How much education did your parents have? “Little. But Father read a great deal.”

Siblings:
He is youngest of four children. Brother, age fifty, a chemist, not in the war, is married, has three children, is opposed to the Nazi Party. He is “liberal and theosophical.” He ascribes to a religion “after Steiner.” He is not anti-Semitic, has an “anthroposophic religion.”
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As children, did you have any Jewish friends? “No. There was no opportunity. There were no Jews in my hometown.” When did you first meet a Jew? “I don’t recall. Some Jewish merchants came through my town.” Was your father against the Jews? “No.” Your mother? “No.”

Brother, forty-nine, farmer, attended public and agricultural school. He was a private in the first war. He was not politically interested, but he did join the Nazi Party after 1933. He is single. His mother keeps house for him. He “had bad luck with some women and never got around to marrying.”

Sister, forty-seven, single, has a textile business, retail, never married. “She might have been a party member after 1933, but she was never politically active.”

Which sibling are you closest to emotionally? “Most of my contact has been with my oldest brother. I had intellectual talks with him regarding anthroposophy. We have a good family feeling.” Any reason why the sister is unmarried? “You can say it was because it was a war generation.”

Ohlendorf is loath to talk much of his family or siblings, but we did manage a few more minutes on the subject. I believe it adds up to a minimal emotional relationship between himself and any member of his family and a good deal of hostility between himself and his father. There seems no particularly warm relationship between Ohlendorf and his mother, though the hostility seems less in evidence toward her. He did say that the mother favored the oldest son.

Marital:
Married twelve years. Wife, age thirty-nine. Knew each other seven years prior to marriage. States they are happily married, never separated.

Children:
Five. Nine-year-old girl; seven-year-old boy; five-year-old boy; two-and-a-half-year-old boy; and a girl born in May 1945.

Religion:
Protestant. He left the church in 1942. His family, wife also left the church that year. They have all gone back to the church since May 1945. Why did you leave the church? “Because I didn’t agree with the dogma of the church.” For example? “I felt it was in conflict with the state.”

Do you know Bach-Zelewski? “I knew him twice in Berlin and since I’m here in the prison.” What do you think of him? “I hardly recognize
him here. He was very egocentric, tried to get ahead without considering others.” That was as much as Ohlendorf would say about Bach-Zelewski.

What about plans for the future of Germany? “I would depoliticalize Germany. Intensify agriculture. Create 2 million laboring jobs. Two to three million agricultural jobs. Bring together voluntary groups of people with shared interests. Youth itself is opposed to the whole militaristic style of education. I opposed the politicalizing and I saw Ley and Goebbels as opponents of National Socialism.”

Oswald Pohl
1892–1951

Oswald Pohl, head of the SS Economic and Administrative Main Office, was tried by a U.S. military tribunal in 1947 and hanged on June 8, 1951.

This fifty-four-year-old man was seized by the British authorities on May 27, 1946, after having hidden in northern Germany since the end of the war. He was a large, stocky fellow, disheveled, with a two or three days’ growth of beard, and raggedly clothed. There were slight superficial abrasions of the left face. He said these were incurred when he was beaten up by British soldiers — “about twelve of them” — in the prison to which he was taken after captivity.

He was a soft-spoken, passive-appearing man who said, “I don’t hold it against the men who beat me because undoubtedly there are some ruffians of every nationality and the English are not exceptions.” He remarked that undoubtedly, because of his high position under Himmler, people would consider him guilty even before trial. He asked if he would be permitted a defense counsel because he intended to prove his innocence and establish the fact that he had never acted dishonorably. His manner was courteous, deferential, and ingratiating.

He said that he was in charge of all administrative and economic problems of the SS. He was chief of the WVHA (Economic and Administrative Main Office) of the concentration camps, and their factories
which worked for war production. There were about thirty factories under the SS, he explained, for example the German Equipment Works at Dachau and Oranienburg, and the German Stone and Earth Works at Oranienburg. These plants manufactured armaments.
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Pohl was born in Duisburg in the Rhineland on June 30, 1892. As far as he knew, his birth was not remarkable and he developed normally. He had no serious illnesses except for uncomplicated diphtheria as a child, and occasional painful sore throats.

I asked him whether he had much direct contact with Himmler. He replied, “Yes. In the beginning, I saw him constantly, but later, when I achieved my very important office, I saw him about once every three months. I only spoke to Himmler about economic affairs, such as supplies, clothing, and problems which arose about the factories, concentration camp labor, and so forth.”

Had he ever met Dr. Emil Puhl, the vice president of the Reichsbank, in order to arrange for the deposit of gold from the concentration camps in the Reichsbank? “I had occasional meetings with Puhl on official business regarding the depositing of gold in the Reichsbank. More important was when Puhl helped me to secure foreign funds to buy land in the East.”

Pohl attended elementary school for seven years and gymnasium for another seven years. He was a “fair student” and graduated at the age of twenty. He enlisted at once in the navy, to become a paymaster. He stayed in the navy until January 31, 1934.

He left the navy after twenty-three years of service, to enter the SS. He was charged with organizing the SS administrative and economic section. He remained at this increasingly important post until the end of the war.

He was married twice. The first union ended in divorce in 1936, after eighteen years of marriage, “because of incompatibility.” He had three children with his first wife, who was three years younger than himself. In 1942, he married a young widow, fourteen years his junior, who had three children of her own and, since their marriage, has had one child with him.

Today Pohl’s appearance was neat and well groomed. He wore the same ragged clothes, but he was shaved and the facial abrasion marks noted
yesterday were barely visible. He had a square, heavy face with large regular features, sparse gray hair with some central baldness, and a slight frontal dental malocclusion.

I asked him how his interrogation had fared yesterday. He replied that it had lasted for three hours and was somewhat tiring, but that he had been treated courteously by the numerous interrogators. They had confronted him with various documents and asked him many detailed questions, which were difficult to answer promptly “because after twelve years in the SS, one can’t remember everything.” He said that he had made up his mind to tell the truth and to withhold nothing.

We continued with his personal history. During his hiding in the past year, he was in contact with his two daughters and his daughter-in-law. He lived with the latter periodically, but most of the time worked as a hired hand on a farm owned by an old friend of Pohl’s present wife.

When the war ended in May 1945, Pohl was with his family in Halfing, near Rosenheim in Bavaria. “I used a false name and had forged papers, which I obtained from friends in a small village in northern Germany. On my way up from Bavaria to the north, I traveled on foot from village to village. Whenever I entered a new town, I would report to the local police, and thus acquired several papers bearing my assumed name. It was fairly easy for me to get through in this way.”

Had anyone recognized him during the past year? “My children and my daughter-in-law. I lived with my daughter-in-law and her parents, who are named Westphal. I don’t know whether they are arrested. My son was a captain in the SS and is now interned in a French POW camp.”

How had he managed to avoid arrest during this period of more than a year? “The authorities repeatedly searched my daughter-in-law’s house, but I received advance tips, and would not be present at such times. Besides, I had hired out to work on a farm and stayed there much of the time. It must be that in searching my daughter-in-law’s home, the authorities found some clue, perhaps some article I left behind, and traced me to the farm.”

He said his wife lived in Halfing and that he had not seen her since May 13, 1945. About four weeks before he was captured, he wrote to her for the first time. He doubted that the letter led to his arrest because he used a false name and a fake address.

He outlined his activities in the navy. “I was an administrative officer, or paymaster, in units ashore and at sea from April 1, 1912, until
January 31, 1934. I began my career as a paymaster candidate, which was equivalent to an ordinary seaman, except that to become a paymaster candidate, one had to have reached at least the final year of gymnasium. In 1920 and 1921, in my spare time, I attended some lectures on commercial subjects at the University of Kiel. When I left the navy in 1934, I held the rank of captain.”

I asked him for a brief sketch of his career in the SS. “I was administrative chief of the SS. I was in charge of the WVHA.” Had he begun as chief of this section, or had he worked up to the position? “I started in as chief. I was invited by Himmler specifically to build up the administration and economy of the SS.”

How did he happen to become acquainted with Himmler? “In May 1933, Hitler paid a visit to the navy in Kiel and Himmler accompanied him. It is quite a story. You see, about six months prior to that visit, I had written a letter to Hitler regarding First Lieutenant Heydrich, who later became chief of the RSHA. I told Hitler in my letter that there were rumors rampant in navy circles that Heydrich had been ousted from the navy because of affairs with women and other bad characteristics. I mentioned that it caused me considerable discomfort because naval personnel poked fun at me by saying that only those who couldn’t get along in the navy joined the party or SS. At the time I wrote the letter, Heydrich was already becoming prominent in the SS. In that way, Hitler’s and Himmler’s attention was drawn to me.”

In what way did navy personnel poke fun at him? “Well, they teased me by saying that if a man couldn’t amount to anything in the navy, he would join the Nazis. I wrote to Hitler that if all the things rumored about Heydrich were true, then I couldn’t understand why he was permitted to wear the SS uniform.” Had Pohl’s letter been a character recommendation of Heydrich? “No. I had not known him at all. I only came to know him later after I joined the SS.” What were these rumors that existed in the navy about Heydrich? “They were ordinary rumors, that he had been forced to resign from the navy because of bad character, that he had affairs with women that ended immorally, and numerous other stories which I don’t recall anymore.”

I remarked that it was still unclear to me — just why had he written such a letter to Hitler? “I wrote that if all the things being said about Heydrich were true, then he should not be permitted to wear the SS uniform, because according to the rumors, he had been dishonorably dismissed
from the navy. I said in my letter that in my opinion the SS was as honorable and important an organization as the navy, and therefore, if a man were unfit to wear a navy uniform, he was unfit to wear the SS uniform.”

What happened as the result of this letter? “Because of my letter, Himmler addressed me at Kiel and told me that what was said in the navy about Heydrich was untrue, because he had personally investigated the rumors. Himmler dismissed these rumors as the usual accusation that if one couldn’t get along in the navy, one joins the party.”