When I Say No, I Feel Guilty (29 page)

As you may have figured out for yourself, Milt’s practice in preparation for a graduate school interview was really a role rehearsal for a job interview, an experience
that most of us view with distaste or even some anxiety. Many learners in assertive training request coaching for job interviews and most of the learners who assertively practice for a job interview report afterwards that they felt more at ease in the stressful situation and they coped more realistically with it,
whether or not they got the particular job they were seeking
. The rehearsal of coached dialogues for job interviews is, except for specific details of the particular job, identical to Milt’s rehearsal. In working with nonassertive people as well as with a population of psychiatric patients sufficiently recovered to go back to work and lead productive lives again, several points are consistently raised by these learners: things that they have the most difficulty dealing with in job interviews. Job interviews make them quite nervous and they typically try to hide their nervousness instead of prefacing the interview with a statement like: “I always get a bit nervous applying for a job. Will that interfere with the interview?” (NEGATIVE ASSERTION and NEGATIVE INQUIRY) Most don’t know how to respond to specific negative comments about their work history and experience. Very often, they transmit their doubts about their ability to perform even minor job skills to the interviewer and consequently give the interviewer the impression that they are fragile and may have to be handled with kid gloves on the job, a possible future headache that the company can well afford to do without. My own clinical observations of these difficulties in job interviews were confirmed for me by counseling staff of the State of California Department of Rehabilitation. In a recent southern California meeting of these counselors, at which I was invited to speak on systematic assertive therapy, the main topic of discussion centered around preparing a client for a job. For many of their clients, these counselors agreed that the main problem was enabling them to get a foot in the door at the job interview—not preparing them to do their jobs competently. These clients (as well as many nonassertive people in the general population) seem to have what I can only describe as an unreal “sharing” attitude toward job interviewers.
At times of decision, these unfortunate people seem to take no responsibility for their own circumstances. The classic response that I think best describes this “sharing” attitude was reported by a patient who “tried” to get a job prior to my working with him. When he was asked in a job interview, “Can you drive?” (since the firm often had to deliver paperwork in a rush), instead of simply saying “Yes” (he could drive) or even “Yes, but I will have to get my license renewed,” he replied: “I used to before I was committed to the mental hospital for six months. When the Department of Motor Vehicles found out I was committed involuntarily, they took my driver’s license away.” As you might guess, the job interview terminated immediately. Although this instance of “confessing one’s sins” is a very gross example of how to demonstrate your nonassertiveness and lack of confidence in yourself to a job interviewer, this behavior pattern and attitude are not limited to ex-psychiatric patients. Many of the learners that I teach to cope with job interviews have the same difficulty. When an interviewer delves into an area where the learner experiences self-doubts, they report that they become rattled and exaggerate their supposed shortcomings, confess their self-doubts, then try to overcome this beginning by justifying their limitations in the eyes of the interviewer.

You may ask yourself some of the same questions that novice learners in assertive training ask on how to cope in a job interview. What do I say when the interviewer diplomatically says: “You’re a bit younger than the person we are looking for (or a bit older),” or “It seems that you don’t have as much experience as we would like in this position (or too much experience),” or “You seem to change jobs frequently (or were stuck in one job a long time),” or any of a number of equally open-ended remarks made with the purpose of prompting the applicant to talk about himself. In the following dialogue, Dee, a young file clerk who is learning how to assert herself, is coached on how to respond to
the anxiety-producing statements she may encounter in a job interview.

Dee said that on her last job interview before assertive training, when the interviewer asked her “Can you type?” she replied: “I can’t type more than forty words a minute and I make a lot of errors.” She then tried to explain this apparent lack of job skills by saying: “I never was very good at typing, I failed the typing course twice and had to take it a third time before I passed it.” The job she was applying for was that of an office clerk and did not require typing as a prerequisite for the job. Dee and I discussed her problem in taking job interviews in the following dialogue.

ME
: My guess is that the interviewer asked if you could type to find out if you would type an occasional letter when the typists and secretaries were busy.

DEE
: I didn’t think of that.

ME
: Could you type an occasional letter?

DEE
: Sure.

ME
: Then why didn’t you tell him that or just say “Yes” when he asked you, instead of spewing out all that garbage on how poor a typist you are?

DEE
: Looking at it now, I don’t really know. I guess that I didn’t want to get caught in promising something I couldn’t do.

ME
: Did you ask him if typing was required for the job?

DEE
: No. The notice didn’t say anything about typing.

ME
: Didn’t you feel a bit curious about why he was talking about typing when the job description didn’t mention it?

DEE
: When he started to talk about typing, my mind went blank …

ME
: … and you started to spew out garbage.

DEE
: … and I started to spew out garbage.

ME
: Let’s try it now. I’ll interview you for a job and Kathy will coach you if you need help.

DEE
: Okay. What job?

ME
: You decide. Janitor, brain surgeon, CIA agent,
the same job; it doesn’t matter. It’s the same for all of them.

DEE
: I’d like to go over the part I had trouble with in the last one.

ME
: How about other things he could throw at you?

DEE
: Okay, those too.

ME
: (Role-playing) Can you type?

DEE
: Yes.

ME
: Good, we occasionally have busy periods in the office and we like to have everyone help everyone else.

DEE
:
That’s a great way to do things
, but
I don’t understand, is typing a required skill for this job?
[FOGGING and SELF-DISCLOSURE]

ME
: No, but as I said we would like someone who is flexible.

DEE
:
I ask that because I don’t want to give you the impression that I’m an expert typist. I’m not. If you really need someone super-fast, I don’t fill the bill
. But I can bang out a letter in a pinch or do some memos. [NEGATIVE ASSERTION]

ME
: No, your job would be mainly in the office keeping things up to date and in order.

DEE
: That sounds fine to me.

ME
: I see from your application that you don’t have much experience in working in an office.

DEE
:
That’s true in terms of work time
, but at the places I worked before, I learned an awful lot about office procedures. You had to work hard and learn fast to keep your job. [FOGGING]

ME
: I also see that you changed jobs frequently.

DEE
:
Yes, I did
. When a better job came along, I took it. [FOGGING]

ME
: Well, we like our employees to stick with us.

DEE
:
I’m sure you do
. What incentives do you offer to keep your employees from going to other jobs? [FOGGING]

ME
: I’ll tell you about our employee benefit plans a little later. You are a bit younger than most of the employees we like to lure.

DEE
:
I’m sure I am and I don’t blame you for being cautious
. A lot of girls my age aren’t very mature and
don’t seem to get along with other people, but that isn’t a problem for me. [FOGGING]

ME
: I see you only have experience as a file clerk.

DEE
:
That’s true
, I haven’t had enough experience yet to even think of things like being a supervisor. [FOGGING]

ME
: What do you expect to be doing in a few years?

DEE
: Hopefully working for you, but that depends upon things like raises and advancement.
I don’t know enough about this company yet to give a realistic answer
. [NEGATIVE ASSERTION]

ME
: Is there anything you would like to ask me?

DEE
: Yes, I’d like to know about salary, working conditions, benefits.

ME
: (With great gusto to reinforce Dee’s new approach to a job interview) Fantastic. You’re hired!

DEE
: (Grinning, and men thoughtful and serious) But what if I didn’t type and he wanted me to?

ME
: You mean he’s changing his mind after placing the advertisement?

DEE
: Yeah. What happens then?

ME
: Why not role-play it and see what could happen?

DEE
: Okay.

ME
: Can you type?

DEE
: No.

ME
: Hmm. We had hoped to get someone who could type a little to help out the other girls in the office.

DEE
: (Without coaching) Does that mean that you won’t hire me?

ME
: Yes. I’m afraid you don’t meet our qualifications.

DEE
: What do I say now? I lost the job. I’d just get up and leave.

KATHY
: (Interrupting) Dee, there’s more at stake here than just getting or not getting a job. How does it make you feel when the interviewer said you don’t meet his specifications?

DEE
: It makes me mad as hell for him to put out a crooked advertisement for a job and then waste my time going down there for an interview.

KATHY
: Then why not tell him that?

DEE
: Why not? Okay!

ME
: (Repeating) Yes. I’m afraid you don’t meet our qualifications.

DEE
: That makes me mad as hell. You wasted a whole morning for me by saying one thing in the paper and then telling me something else when I get here. If you want someone who can type, then pay for it. (Breaking role-playing) What do I do now?

KATHY
: Nothing. Just sit there and look him in the eye.

ME
: Well, you should have known that general office skills means some typing.

DEE
: (Picking up the interviewer’s attempted manipulation) I can understand why you would say that, but your way of doing business makes me mad.

ME
: Well, I’m very sorry that we have inconvenienced you.

DEE
: I’m sure you are, but your way of doing business still makes me mad.

ME
: What can I do? I apologize for your inconvenience.

DEE
: You can be more specific in your job descriptions in the future so you don’t waste my time again.

ME
: (Breaking role-playing) What can I say, Dee? You’ve pinned me to the wall.

KATHY
: How do you feel about what you just did?

DEE
: I feel really good. It doesn’t make sense. I lost a job, but I feel good.

KATHY
: Maybe because you told the interviewer what you thought of his shenanigans? Think about it!

In training nonassertive people to cope adequately in a job interview, I stress three things. First, I train them to listen to what the interviewer asks or says, not what they think he means by the question or statement. Second, I train them not to deny any of their possible shortcomings that the interviewer may point out, and third, in spite of any supposed shortcomings, I train them to tell the interviewer that they think they still can do a damn good job for the company.

With no modesty at all, I use my own experience in job interviews as a model after which they can pattern their own behavior. For example, I tell my students and patients: “When I was interviewed for my present position one of the questions put to me was: ‘Can you teach crisis intervention?’ And my answer was an immediate ‘Yes.’ I was hired on the spot. It really didn’t matter that I spent the next week brushing up on crisis intervention methods and then arranging for the whole staff to be trained in crisis intervention at the Los Angeles Psychiatric Services Clinic. I was asked only if I could teach crisis intervention and the truth was that I could. I listened only to what the interviewer asked, not what I thought he meant by the question. If I were asked by the job interviewer on the other hand, ‘How much experience do you have in crisis intervention?’ I would have answered, ‘Very little beyond the exposure you get in general clinical training, but I am very much interested in it and I would hope to get a lot of field experience in crisis intervention here.’ If then the interviewer stated: ‘We would like to get someone who could teach crisis intervention to the rest of our staff,’ I would have replied, ‘That’s no problem. I’ve been teaching psychology for ten years now and if I didn’t feel adequate to teach crisis intervention, I would make arrangements for an expert to consult here at the clinic or arrange for the staff to attend a workshop where the experts are.’ I gave a clear message to the interviewer—the way I responded to his questions didn’t matter—I was confident that I could solve problems and get a job done that he wanted done. The ability to solve problems for his organization and get a job done is really what a job interviewer is looking for in an applicant, no matter what the job title—clerk, manager, bookkeeper, salesman, repairman, lathe operator, truck driver, janitor, or psychologist”