Listening In (22 page)

CALL TO GOVERNOR ROSS BARNETT, SEPTEMBER 30, 1962

In this follow-up conversation, the stakes have risen, with a death reported during the call, and a breakdown in order seemed imminent. When Kennedy announces, “We’ll decide what we’re gonna do,” and demands that Governor Barnett refrain from giving speeches, it’s clear that the tide has shifted.

BARNETT:
… the commissioner of the highway patrol to order every man he’s got.

JFK:
Yeah. Well, now, how long’s that gonna take? We don’t want, uh, somebody …

BARNETT:
Well, I haven’t been able to locate him.

JFK:
You can’t locate?

BARNETT:
The … he went to the … Here’s what happened. He went to the doctor’s office with this man that was hurt.

JFK:
Yeah.

BARNETT:
And he, I finally located him there after you’d told me to get, [have?] him to get more people, don’t you see, if …

JFK:
Yeah.

BARNETT:
… you needed ’em.

JFK:
Yeah.

BARNETT:
And he thought then that fifty he had would be sufficient.

JFK:
Yeah.

BARNETT:
But I told him, by all means, to order out every one he had if he needed it.

JFK:
Yeah.

BARNETT:
And I’m certainly trying in every way …

JFK:
Well, we can’t consider moving Meredith
²
as long as, you know, there’s a riot outside, ’cause he wouldn’t be safe.

BARNETT:
Sir?

JFK:
We couldn’t consider moving Meredith, if we haven’t been able to restore order outside. That’s the problem, Governor.

BARNETT:
Well, I’ll tell you what I’ll do, Mr. President.

JFK:
Yeah.

BARNETT:
I’ll go up there myself …

JFK:
Well, now, how long will it take you to get there?

BARNETT:
… and I’ll get a microphone and tell ’em that you have agreed to, for him to be removed.

JFK:
No. No. Now, wait a minute. How long?

BARNETT:
[unclear]

JFK:
Wait a minute, Governor.

BARNETT:
Yes?

JFK:
Now, how long is it going to take you to get up there?

BARNETT:
’Bout an hour.

JFK:
Now, I’ll tell you what, if you want to go up there and then you call me from up there. Then we’ll decide what we’re gonna do before you make any speeches about it.

BARNETT:
Well, all right. Well …

JFK:
No sense in …

BARNETT:
… I mean, whatever you, if you’d authorize …

JFK:
You see, if we don’t, we’ve got an hour to go, and that’s not, we may not have an hour.

BARNETT:
This, this man …

JFK:
Won’t it take you an hour to get up there?

BARNETT:
… this man has just died.

JFK:
Did he die?

BARNETT:
Yes.

JFK:
Which one? State police?

BARNETT:
A state policeman.

JFK:
Yeah, well, you see, we gotta get order up there, and that’s what we thought we’re going to have.

BARNETT:
Mr. President, please. Why don’t you, can’t you give an order up there to remove Meredith?

JFK:
How can I remove him, Governor, when there’s a riot in the street, and he may step out of that building and something happen to him? I can’t remove him under those conditions. You …

PRESIDENT KENNEDY ADDRESSES THE NATION ON THE INTEGRATION OF THE UNIVERSITY OF MISSISSIPPI, SEPTEMBER 30, 1962

BARNETT:
But, but …

JFK:
Let’s get order up there, then we can do something about Meredith.

BARNETT:
… we can surround it with plenty of officials.

JFK:
Well, we’ve gotta get somebody up there now to get order and stop the firing and the shooting. Then when, you and I will talk on the phone about Meredith.

BARNETT:
All right.

JFK:
But first we gotta get order.

BARNETT:
I’ll call and tell ’em to get every official they can.

JFK:
That’s right and then you and I …

BARNETT:
[unclear]

JFK:
… will talk when they’ve got the, when they get order there, then you and I’ll talk about what’s the best thing to do with Meredith.

BARNETT:
All right, then.

JFK:
Well, thank you.

BARNETT:
All right.

MEETING WITH AMERICANS FOR DEMOCRATIC ACTION LEADERS, MAY 4, 1963

In the spring of 1963, the Civil Rights Movement had shifted its attention to the recalcitrant city of Birmingham, Alabama. An ugly campaign resulted, with growing anger between the advocates for change and the well-organized authorities commanded by Commissioner of Public Safety Theophilus “Bull” Connor. In this meeting, President Kennedy tries to explain his position before a prominent liberal organization, the Americans for Democratic Action, on the day that a now-famous photograph appeared in the
New York Times
, showing police dogs attacking peaceful protesters.

THE PHOTOGRAPH THAT SHOCKED THE NATION: POLICE DOGS ATTACK A PROTESTER IN BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA, THE
NEW YORK TIMES
, MAY 4, 1963

JFK:
There is no federal law that we can pass to do anything about that picture in today’s
Times
. Well, there isn’t. I mean what law can you pass to do anything about police power in the community of Birmingham? There is nothing we can do. There is no federal law, is no federal statute, no federal law we can pass. Now, the fact of the matter is that Birmingham is in worse shape than any other city in the United States, and it’s been that way for a year and a half. We’ve been working, we’ve got a new mayor who was elected probably as a result of the efforts of this administration, working with the press, get those papers down there, working with the steel companies to try and get them to change their attitudes, the new mayor who was elected, is coming in on May 18, was elected by the Negroes, got a minority of the white vote. But it’s being challenged in the Supreme Court; he doesn’t take office until the Supreme Court decision is reached on May 18. And as it is today, Bull Connor’s in charge, and this is just what Bull Connor wants.
³
I personally think that if I was in charge down there that I would wait until the new mayor is in. That is the only hope. What we have now is another bad day down there, the prisons are full. I mean, Bull Connor just eats this up. What they want, what the governor wants is to put the National Guard in there.

That’s what is going to happen in a day or two. I would have, if I had been in charge of the operation, I think this was [a substantial] view, I would have waited until the new mayor came in. That is the best hope for Birmingham. That’s what, all this happened for years [unclear]. I think it’s terrible, the picture in the paper. The fact of the matter, that’s just what Connor wants. And, as I say, Birmingham is the worst city in the South. They have done nothing for the Negroes in that community, so it is an intolerable situation, that there is no argument about. I am not saying that anybody ought to be patient. This may be the only way these things come to a head. I do think there is a chance which this new mayor represents in about a week. Now, what I think is going to happen, it’s going to get much worse, we’re going to have the National Guard in there and all sorts of trouble …

[break]

JFK:
[pushed for more “moral suasion” on Civil Rights] Well, wait a, let me just say on the Civil Rights business. We have done not enough because the situation is so desperate. But we have shoved and pushed and the Department of Justice has, there is nothing that my brother’s given more time to. And I quite agree, if I were a Negro I would be awfully sore, but there’s not much. I had some newspaperman in here telling me, “Isn’t it outrageous in Birmingham?” and I said, “Why are you over there eating at the Metropolitan Club
⁴
every day? You talk about Birmingham and you’re up there at the Metropolitan Club. Some of our distinguished commentators … every day lunch [unclear], they wouldn’t even let Negro ambassadors in.” So now he said, “Well, we want to work from the inside,” and I said, “Well, your one contribution is that now they won’t let white ambassadors in.” [laughter] Most of your columnists that you read every day, they’re all over there at the Metropolitan Club. So I think that we have worked hard on civil rights. I think it is a national crisis.

MEETING ABOUT BIRMINGHAM, MAY 12, 1963