The Collected Works of Chögyam Trungpa: Volume 6 (33 page)

Student:
Could you clarify the idea of bardo?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
There are two definitions of bardo at this point. Bardo is in-between experience. And also when you are actually in the six realms of the world, you are in a bardo state. In particular, the sipa bardo is described as the bardo of existence, and you are in it. But in terms of bardo as intermediate state, you could say that it is a kind of relative bardo state. It is not quite a definitely fixed bardo state, as you experience in the six realms of the world.

S:
So the difference is that in one you cannot prevent yourself from going into the others, like a psychotic change, and in the other you can.

TR:
That’s right. In the other, something can be done about it.

S:
You said there were two situations. The helpless one is when it has come to the point where you cannot do anything about it.

TR:
At that point, the karmic pattern just carries out.

S:
At the other point, where there is hope, what do you do?

TR:
You try to reduce your speed of jumping from one extreme to another.

S:
How do you do that?

TR:
Through all kinds of disciplines—like meditation, for instance.

S:
But then we are just on the hope part of the hope and fear again.

TR:
You have to reduce that as well. I mean, hope cannot be regarded as an achievement. If one regards hope in that way, it is also a hang-up; then fear becomes a hang-up as well.

Student:
Rinpoche, in the biography of Milarepa, it says that anyone who hears his name will be saved from the lower realms—magically.

Trungpa Rinpoche:
Well, it depends on whether you hear his name—I mean, if you
hear
it.

Student:
Rinpoche, how can you ever tell if you are slowing down and relaxing, or if you are just using that as something to achieve, as what you have to do to get out? If you are just doing it to achieve something, you are not really relaxing at all.

Trungpa Rinpoche:
If you are really relaxed in the fullest sense, you do not have to watch yourself relaxing, you just happen. Relaxation just happens. Because you are fully being there, you do not have to maintain your relaxation as such. You are just there, being there completely. That is what the idea of relaxation really means; whereas in the other case, you are trying to maintain yourself in something. If there is maintenance of your relaxation, then it seems to be hypocritical.

Student:
Rinpoche, it’s very fascinating for us to listen to you describe the six states of bardo or six realms of being, but how do you, as an instructor or as a spiritual friend, think that it helps us to listen to these descriptions?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
I suppose that the whole idea of listening and learning is based on relating with ourselves constantly. I mean, it is quite possible that some people in this audience are not actually hearing the whole thing at all; they are just taking part in it very graciously. The words sort of pass through their minds, bypassing them. But in some situation of their life struggle, these words they heard come back again; sudden flashes begin to come to their mind. Suddenly such sentences, such ideas, begin to dawn in their mind—whenever it is needed. So it seems that whatever you have heard, whatever you have understood, becomes applicable all the time, rather than that you deliberately try to apply it. I mean, the six realms of the world and all the ideas about bardo in this case are rather speculative. Discussions on how to meditate or practical things like that seem to be more realistic. But nevertheless, these speculative ideas also suddenly come into our mind when needed, flashing into applicable situations.

S:
So we don’t necessarily have to do something on the basis of what we’ve heard, but the flash itself is helpful?

TR:
Well, that seems to be the way. But at the same time, it is also good to understand the intellectual aspect of the teaching. That is obviously very important. We can’t just abandon everything purely to practice and not study. So if anybody is seriously thinking of getting into the path and practicing, you have to know the scholarly or the intellectual aspect equally, as much as the practice, if possible, so that you may be able to help others.

Student:
Rinpoche, in
The Jewel Ornament of Liberation
, in the section on karma, Gampopa talks about wholesome states of mind. He mentions limitless space and limitless consciousness, and describes them as leading to those wholesome states of mind. Yet you seem to regard them as almost pathological, or at least useless. Is that the same thing? What does Gampopa mean by wholesome?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
I think he actually describes that in great detail in describing the six realms of the world. He describes the realm of the first jhana, second jhana, third jhana, and fourth jhana, and the realm of the formless gods and their experience of limitless space, their experience of the meditative state. These practices could be based on egolessness, which could be said to be wholesome, or on ego. The difference between wholesome and unwholesome is based on how you relate with your ego.

S:
In other words, limitless space could be based on ego or non-ego?

TR:
Either could be possible, yes. These four jhana state practices are also regarded as the foundation, or common ground. In Tibetan, they are called
thünmong thekpa
, which means the vehicle or common ground where you develop mind training, to begin with, but with one condition—the absence of ego practice. In other words, you can meditate with ego or in an egoless way; it is your decision.

Student:
I always thought that even if I decide to meditate without ego, when I sit it seems to be a function of what happens.

Trungpa Rinpoche:
Well, it’s not quite that simple. We can’t say that it is a decision, as such, but it seems to be a continual process of successive situations. And largely, the whole idea is that if you have a competent teacher who is not on an ego trip at all—otherwise he wouldn’t be competent—such an egoless spiritual friend could relate with your egolessness, because he or she is egoless himself. I think that is the basic point where the need for guidance begins to arise, definitely. You need an example. You need someone to inspire you, so that you can afford to step out of ego without doing too much damage to yourself. That kind of inspiration is most important. And that seems to be the starting point.

Student:
Ordinary everyday kinds of impulse, feeling, and thought are very much like the six realms of the world, but they are much less intense. All the time you are getting thoughts and reactions and feelings that, when you look at them, really are the six realms of the world. What is the difference?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
Because you have these potentials in you all the time, that is why you could get yourself into such states—if you work yourself up.

S:
But once you get into them, when it becomes so intense, you are locked in your intensity.

TR:
Yes. You are completely stuck then.

Student:
Aren’t you always in one of those six realms?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
No, not necessarily. There could be a state of mind which is loose and filled with junctures all the time. That is the fertile ground where a person could hear the teaching. But once you are in those six realms of the world fully and thoroughly, you become deaf, so you cannot hear the teaching at all. You cannot direct it anywhere, you are just stuck there.

S:
What do you mean by “filled with junctures”?

TR:
Alternatives, possibilities of giving up or taking on. I mean possibilities of letting yourself be inspired or possibilities of letting yourself be seduced. These kinds of junctures happen constantly—with, of course, an element of the six realms of the world in it as well, but not fully being in them.

Student:
Rinpoche, in the
Tibetan Book of the Dead
seminar you mentioned that the human realm was the realm of possibilities, and that in the other realms you were more or less fixed. What is there psychologically about the human realm that gives it these possibilities to get out of samsara?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
In this case we are talking about all six realms as being fixed extremes, so the human realm is also a fixed extreme. But generally the experience of the six realms of the world could be felt only in the human realm, as we are doing. And those junctions also seem to be attributes of the human realm, in that sense. But then you could get into the human realm
of
the human realm, which is an extreme case. You could get stuck in it.

S:
With those junctures, as soon as you choose one, don’t you start to eliminate that point of juncture? In other words, we can only have possibilities when we’re not moving. As soon as we move, we eliminate some of the possibilities.

TR:
That is why you can step out of all those extreme cases.

S:
By not moving?

TR:
By realizing the possible inclination toward the next extreme case.

S:
By not choosing it?

TR:
You don’t have to choose, but it comes to you. I mean, these six realms of world are just presented to you. The extreme search for sensual pleasure of the realm of the gods or the extreme anger of the realm of hell are just presented to you by a succession of coincidences, seemingly.

S:
If you want to stay cool—

TR:
You can’t stay cool—unless you have some practice, like training your basic mind through the discipline of meditation. Otherwise, you cannot stay cool just because you do not want to take part in any of those. You can’t do that at all. It’s almost an involuntary thing. You have been programmed into the samsaric world because you are in it.

Student:
Rinpoche, you said that scriptural knowledge was necessary in order to help other people. But why is that so? Once you realize the truth, why can’t you approach it directly and transmit it directly as opposed to going through the scriptures? Why do you have to use the scriptures?

Trungpa Rinpoche:
Well, you don’t have to use them as though you’ve been programmed by the scriptures. But you can’t help relating with such earthy ideas, the earthy statements that lineage people in the past have made and the practices they have gone through themselves. Their examples, the messages they left behind, are automatically applicable to your life, so you can’t help imparting that to others. It just happens naturally. You don’t have to become a preacher at all, but you just sail along through the ocean of dharma.

S:
Why couldn’t we just separate out or emphasize things like mindfulness or the technique of meditation, as opposed to talking about the scriptures?

TR:
Well, if you are talking about mindfulness, I think you are talking about scriptures.

S:
Not in the historical sense.

TR:
I don’t mean scriptures in the historical sense, but as actual descriptions of life. The experience of the six realms of the world that we have been discussing is also taken from the scriptures, but it seems to be more experiential than just retelling stories or myths.

THREE

The Jealous God Realm

T
HE REALM OF THE GODS
provides a background of the different experiences of meditative absorption, and also materialistic absorption in the world of sensual pleasure. That seems to be one of the basic key points to work through in the six realms of the world. There are also six states of bardo which are related with the six realms of the world: the bardo of meditation (clear light), the bardo of birth, the bardo of illusory body, the bardo of the dreamlike quality of experiences, the bardo of existence or becoming, and the bardo of death. Those six types of bardo experience could be seen in conjunction with the six realms of the world; we could almost say that each realm we are in always has the qualities of the six bardos: the qualities of birth, death, meditative absorption/ clear light, illusion, and becoming or existence—as well as the quality of dharmata, or a sense of space. So each realm contains the six types of bardo experience. The different realms of being—like the hungry ghost realm or the human being realm or whatever—are the background experience. And within that background, there are the natural qualities of that background, which are the six bardos. For instance, if you are in the realm of the gods, you could have a dreamlike experience or a meditative absorption–like experience, or other bardo experience like that. So the six types of bardo experience are connected with the six realms of the world very closely. On the other hand, we could also relate how each realm is contained in each type of bardo. It could also work that way. But at this point, that seems to be too complicated, so many figures are involved.

The next realm is the realm of the jealous gods, or asuras.
Asura
is a Sanskrit word which literally means “nongod”:
a
is negative,
sura
is “god,” so
asura
is “nongod.” It is quite likely that having had the meditative absorption of the realm of the gods, sudden disappointment comes about, the disappointment that you have been cheated, that this is not a permanent experience at all. Therefore you turn around. Your experience turns around completely, and sudden envy begins to develop, jealousy begins to develop. You realize that you haven’t been given the full truth and you haven’t understood ultimate freedom—although you thought what you had achieved was the ultimate freedom of spiritual absorption.